Ep23: Broccoli Cheddar Soup (and something just as money, with Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods)
You’re really only technically eating a vegetable with broccoli cheddar soup — it is insistently not health food, but a giant middle finger to whoever invented the four food groups. It is a “you sure about that?” to the likes of President George HW Bush, who famously and controversially banned broccoli from Air Force One. Plus, we get to the bottom of broccoli vs broccoli rabe vs broccolini, and a broccoli dish to impress.
Recipes Mentioned:
Broccoli Cheddar Soup (Serious Eats)
Broccoli Cheddar Soup (Smitten Kitchen)
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<v SPEAKER_4>Can I read you the little introduction to the post that I wrote about my recipe on Serious Eats?
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<v SPEAKER_5>Please do, because it was very funny.
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<v SPEAKER_5>It made me laugh.
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<v SPEAKER_4>All right.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It says, In the world of cheaty foods, broccoli cheese soup has always seemed like one of the cheatiest.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yes, broccoli is the first word in the name, and soup sure sounds healthy, but let's get real.
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<v SPEAKER_4>When you go up to the counter and tell the order taker, I'd like a bowl of broccoli cheese soup, please, what you're really saying is, thank you for making it easy and acceptable to drink a bowl of nacho cheese sauce for lunch.
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<v SPEAKER_5>From PRX's Radiotopia, this is The Recipe with Kenji and Deb, where we help you discover your own perfect recipes.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Kenji is the author of The Food Lab, and The Walk, and a columnist for The New York Times.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_4>She's also the author of three best-selling cookbooks.
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<v SPEAKER_5>We've been professional recipe developers for nearly two decades, and we've got the same basic goal, to make recipes that work for you and to make you excited to get into the kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But we've got really different approaches, and on this show, we'll cook and talk about each other's recipes, comparing notes to see what we can learn from each other.
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<v SPEAKER_5>This week, we're talking about broccoli cheddar soup.
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<v SPEAKER_4>That's next on The Recipe, so stick around.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Deb, so you said you don't have many opinions on broccoli cheese soup.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Did you have broccoli cheese soup growing up?
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<v SPEAKER_4>What was your earliest experience with broccoli cheese soup?
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<v SPEAKER_5>We absolutely did not grow up on it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Cheese soup is not something we have ever conceptualized outside, like, I don't know, onion soup, which was definitely something we did have, but that's like the cheese on top.
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<v SPEAKER_5>So I just, I always thought it was kind of a Midwestern thing, but then I learned that there's a lot of countries and cultures that have their own versions of cheese soup, from Spain, to Switzerland, to Tibet.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, so I absolutely did not grow up on it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Like, I did not have it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Did you have it growing up?
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<v SPEAKER_4>No, not at all.
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<v SPEAKER_4>In fact, the first time I think I ever had broccoli cheese soup was when I developed this recipe.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And because I developed the recipe because people were asking me, hey, do you have a broccoli cheese soup recipe on Serious Eats?
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I was like, I've never had broccoli cheese soup in my life.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And so what I did was I looked up on the Internet where most people's experiences for broccoli cheese soup come from.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I think it's two places.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's either the Campbell's Canned Broccoli Cheese Soup or it's lunch at Panera.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Panera is the big one.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Apparently, the Campbell's Canned Broccoli Cheese Soup came out in the 90s.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And I think that's around the time Panera probably blew up, maybe late 90s.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I'm not sure.
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<v SPEAKER_5>But it was like the biggest thing on their menu was this broccoli cheese soup.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I guess they're still around.
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<v SPEAKER_5>So maybe it still is.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Maybe I should have gone out there for research, found a Panera.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Probably by the time I made this broccoli cheddar soup, I'd probably only had it like three or four times just because people had mentioned it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Maybe I tried it in a cafe.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And then I think I mentioned that I was having a really weird craving for it when I was pregnant with my daughter.
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<v SPEAKER_5>When I was pregnant with my son, I was craving broccoli and green vegetables all the time.
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<v SPEAKER_5>But for my daughter, somehow cheese was added.
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<v SPEAKER_6>Like it was very specific.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Broccoli cheese soup, it's super popular at Panera.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And it was also, I think, Campbell's best selling soup in like decades or something like that.
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<v SPEAKER_4>They had a Get President George Bush to Eat Broccoli campaign.
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<v SPEAKER_4>This is George HW Bush who said that now that he's president of the United States, he no longer has to eat broccoli because he's hated it since he was a kid.
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<v SPEAKER_5>It was actually hilarious.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I mean, it was really like a very funny, like it was such the kind of thing you think you would say if you became president.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Like, you know, I had to eat it as a kid and I'm the president of the United States, and I'm not going to eat broccoli anymore.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I hope we're giving a reference that anyone has heard of, but it was like 89, 88.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Back then, like those were the kinds of things that were coming out of the White House.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, those were different times.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Long for those days.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Do you remember the mock protest where California broccoli farmers sent a truckload of broccoli to the White House?
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<v SPEAKER_5>They were going to dump it there.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I don't remember that.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And I think that Bush had lamented that it might have cost him the broccoli vote, his comment.
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<v SPEAKER_5>You've got the president disparaging your crop.
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<v SPEAKER_5>You can't have this.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Did you eat broccoli growing up?
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<v SPEAKER_5>Like if you were to become the president of the United States, would you say something really bratty to the press about broccoli?
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<v SPEAKER_4>No, I loved broccoli growing up.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I still love broccoli.
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<v SPEAKER_4>My kids actually really love broccoli too.
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<v SPEAKER_4>My mom would blanch it or steam it and then chill it, and then we would eat it dipped into QP mayonnaise, which I think is a real Japanese thing to do, but that's what we did.
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<v SPEAKER_5>That sounds really good.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Broccoli and asparagus, cold dipped into QP.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I feel like most broccoli cheddar soup recipes have a pretty standard batch of ingredients.
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<v SPEAKER_5>You've got the broccoli, you've got the cheese, you should have some milk or cream, maybe some butter, onion and-
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<v SPEAKER_4>Generally some flour to help-
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<v SPEAKER_5>Garlic, usually to make a roux, to thicken it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And to make sure that the cheese kind of blends in smoothly and doesn't break out.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Usually chicken or vegetable broth, and then, I don't know, onion, garlic.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And for some reason, there's always carrots in there.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And I don't think they're doing a whole lot besides adding color and maybe a little bit of sweetness.
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<v SPEAKER_5>But it feels important to have that there.
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<v SPEAKER_4>What my recipe ends up being, it's like real cheese forward with bits of broccoli in there.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Whereas your recipe is the other way around.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Your recipe is really broccoli forward.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, your soup is green.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I think that was part of your goal, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Your soup is real green.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It looks like a healthy soup.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It tastes delicious, but it also tastes healthy.
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<v SPEAKER_4>In fact, it's probably less healthy than it tastes.
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<v SPEAKER_4>There's still quite a bit of butter and cream and cheese in there.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But no, but it tastes great and it's real broccoli forward.
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<v SPEAKER_5>It doesn't have one and a quarter pounds of cheese in it, though.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And that makes it less exciting.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Well, it didn't when you put the recipe up, but it did when I made it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I put in the recommended eight ounces of sharp cheddar cheese in your recipe, and then I put in the remainder of the pound of sharp cheddar cheese that I had.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I think it always comes down to personal preferences, but I think this was definitely one where I was looking, and I'm like, Kenji's is like a big puddle of cheese sauce, and my kids are going to abs-
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<v SPEAKER_5>they're going to go berserk for it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>They're going to completely love it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And I was coming from more of a place of like, I don't know why I'm supposed to eat a big puddle of cheese sauce.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Can I find a balance where I felt like I equally tasted both things?
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<v SPEAKER_5>And so that's where I was coming from.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You got there.
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<v SPEAKER_5>That was your goal.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You got there.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And I'm glad you said it too, because I really did find that it's a very quick soup too.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Honestly, it's the chopping of the broccoli that probably takes almost as much time as making the soup, depending on fast you are.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I mean, it's a lot to cut eight cups of broccoli.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It is, yeah.
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<v SPEAKER_4>One and a quarter pounds of broccoli, I think your recipe calls for.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But the thing is, like with your soup, it's mostly puree.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Like you can puree it down as much as you want.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And so you can be real rough about the chop.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I didn't very carefully separate little florets.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I just kind of roughly chopped everything and then blended it until it looked OK at the end, you know?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Pulsed it with a hand blender.
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<v SPEAKER_4>That's what I did.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I pulsed it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>My family doesn't like pureed soups.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I think they're wrong.
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<v SPEAKER_5>So I tend to just keep it pretty chunky.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Then I might let it sit for one or two seconds just to get a little bit more background thickness and body.
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<v SPEAKER_5>But it really looks a lot like when I make it, really more like the photo on my site where you can see the chunks in it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You can see chunks.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Mine had some chunks left over in it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>When I was working on this recipe, I tested a whole bunch of recipes before I started working on mine.
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<v SPEAKER_4>The process is generally, you sweat out some onions and carrots and then you add some flour, then you add your liquids, and then you simmer the broccoli, and then you blend it all and you blend in some cheese, which is pretty close to how you do yours.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Your recipe, you're mainly playing around with the ratio of ingredients and the real nitty-gritty specifics of the process in order to find that real good balance between broccoli and cheddar.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I wanted mine to really taste like a broccoli soup with cheese in it, rather than a cheese soup with broccoli in it.
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<v SPEAKER_5>But I had done the same thing you had because I also hadn't grown up on it and I didn't have a go-to recipe.
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<v SPEAKER_5>So when I started having cravings for it, I just picked a few popular ones on the internet, which were mostly Panera copycats.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I was like, my word, there's three cups of cream in here and two pounds of cheese.
00:10:00.910 --> 00:10:06.550
<v SPEAKER_5>I'm not saying none of it went to waste, but not just this isn't a calorie thing.
00:10:06.550 --> 00:10:17.990
<v SPEAKER_5>I just feel like when something is that heavy and rich, fat, you could probably explain this from a food science perspective, but fatty, thick, rich things block flavor.
00:10:18.470 --> 00:10:21.970
<v SPEAKER_5>You just couldn't taste anything, not the onion and not the broccoli.
00:10:21.970 --> 00:10:27.070
<v SPEAKER_5>It includes it, it wraps it in cellophane or butter fat.
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<v SPEAKER_5>You can't taste the vegetables.
00:10:28.950 --> 00:10:33.230
<v SPEAKER_5>I felt like that was a bummer if you actually wanted a little bit of a broccoli taste in there or a lot.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:10:33.910 --> 00:10:36.610
<v SPEAKER_4>Cream and butter do tend to just dull flavors.
00:10:36.610 --> 00:10:39.870
<v SPEAKER_4>They'll make sharper flavors rounder and bitter.
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<v SPEAKER_4>They really smooth out all the edges of everything.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Something like broccoli, which does have a pretty distinct aroma and it has a little bit of bitterness to it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You do end up losing a lot of the characteristics that make broccoli when you add that much cream and butter to it, which is maybe part of the point.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's like, how do we get kids, how do we get George HW Bush to eat more broccoli?
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's like you just make it taste less like broccoli.
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<v SPEAKER_5>And more like cheese.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And more like cheese.
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<v SPEAKER_5>A wildly popular concept in the 90s and apparently since.
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<v SPEAKER_5>Now, so I gave you the standard ingredient list, but your recipe on Serious Eats has some other interesting, I was actually expecting you to use evaporated milk here.
00:11:21.550 --> 00:11:27.090
<v SPEAKER_5>And I think you mentioned it in your headnotes, but let's talk about the ingredients that you have that are kind of like non-standard.
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<v SPEAKER_5>I'm thinking of there's potato in it and you don't use cream, you use milk.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, so the potato is actually like the end of a long sort of process, you know, because if you try and just melt cheese directly in stock or you melt cheese directly in milk, American cheese will work because it's got emulsifying salts in it, you know, things that will help make sure that the proteins don't like kind of squeeze up too tightly and you don't end up with like a like a stringy block of cheese that just like sinks to the bottom and like fat that flows to the top, which is what happens if you try and just melt.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, you get a fat, a fatberg.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yep.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So, you know, American cheese has these emulsifying salts in it that help it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But if you're going to do something like a sharp cheddar and you just try and melt it in milk, it doesn't really work very well.
00:12:09.790 --> 00:12:13.030
<v SPEAKER_4>So that's why you need a thickener, you know, something like flour.
00:12:13.030 --> 00:12:18.170
<v SPEAKER_4>When you make a roux, those starch granules in the flour, they swell up, they thicken it up.
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<v SPEAKER_4>The protein molecules in the cheese are trying to find each other and trying to like, you know, like hold hands and pull each other real tight.
00:12:23.550 --> 00:12:31.750
<v SPEAKER_4>When you make a thicker sauce, it physically impedes them from doing that so that they don't really tighten up as much because there's all these swollen up starch granules in the way.
00:12:31.750 --> 00:12:34.050
<v SPEAKER_4>I tested like, you know, a standard roux.
00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:37.250
<v SPEAKER_4>And then I tested also adding evaporated milk.
00:12:37.250 --> 00:12:51.090
<v SPEAKER_4>Evaporated milk can help with these kinds of like emulsifying because they contain more protein, mesels, which are sort of bundles of proteins that have their ends poking out so that they repel each other instead of attracting each other.
00:12:51.090 --> 00:12:56.010
<v SPEAKER_4>But what I found actually worked best in the end was if you just throw a potato in there.
00:12:56.010 --> 00:13:01.530
<v SPEAKER_4>Have you ever tried making mashed potatoes by boiling the potatoes and then sticking them in a food processor?
00:13:01.530 --> 00:13:06.470
<v SPEAKER_5>You get glue because potatoes are actually like what, 90 percent water, they're all water.
00:13:06.470 --> 00:13:09.730
<v SPEAKER_4>They're water and a bunch of starch that bursts out.
00:13:10.330 --> 00:13:14.130
<v SPEAKER_5>It's all just like little water bubbles is what I think of it.
00:13:14.130 --> 00:13:16.830
<v SPEAKER_5>Very scientifically, that's the scientific term for it.
00:13:16.830 --> 00:13:17.510
<v SPEAKER_4>Little water bubbles.
00:13:17.510 --> 00:13:19.490
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, well, there's water and there's a lot of starch.
00:13:19.490 --> 00:13:28.810
<v SPEAKER_4>That starch, when you blend the potato, it destroys all the cells and all these little starch molecules jump out and they turn into like a glue.
00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:30.850
<v SPEAKER_5>Excuse me, a potato is 80% water.
00:13:30.850 --> 00:13:31.810
<v SPEAKER_5>I stand corrected.
00:13:31.810 --> 00:13:32.650
<v SPEAKER_5>Sorry, interrupt.
00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:49.990
<v SPEAKER_4>In mashed potatoes, you don't want that, but in something like a cheese sauce, I actually have a recipe for a vegan cheese sauce that uses a potato also to thicken it because it gives you that gooey cheesy texture without actually, well, in the cheese sauce case, it was without having to actually add cheese.
00:13:49.990 --> 00:14:00.070
<v SPEAKER_4>In the case of the soup, it gives it that creamier, gooier flavor, gooier texture, but I found it doesn't dull flavor the same way that flour or cornstarch or something like that can.
00:14:00.070 --> 00:14:07.870
<v SPEAKER_4>It's just like another vegetable element you're adding in there that when you then subsequently blend it, it turns the soup thicker and it helps the cheese emulsify.
00:14:07.870 --> 00:14:08.530
<v SPEAKER_5>It's cool though.
00:14:08.530 --> 00:14:10.490
<v SPEAKER_5>It's nice because it's something you keep around.
00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:12.430
<v SPEAKER_5>I don't always keep evaporated milk around.
00:14:12.430 --> 00:14:15.210
<v SPEAKER_5>I don't keep all the starches around that might work better.
00:14:15.210 --> 00:14:18.830
<v SPEAKER_5>But so a potato is such a great ingredient because who doesn't have a potato?
00:14:18.830 --> 00:14:19.830
<v SPEAKER_5>Who can't get a potato?
00:14:22.190 --> 00:14:33.490
<v SPEAKER_5>So you use a russet potato and you also add some American, you don't just use cheddar cheese, use 12 ounces of cheddar cheese and then use half a pound of deli style American cheese.
00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:41.650
<v SPEAKER_5>I was so glad you said the word deli style because I was about to buy a package of the individually wrapped ones and I would have lost my mind.
00:14:41.650 --> 00:14:43.270
<v SPEAKER_5>I was very grateful.
00:14:43.270 --> 00:14:46.090
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, or you can just go to the deli counter and ask for just a big chunk of it.
00:14:46.090 --> 00:14:51.650
<v SPEAKER_4>Generally, the stuff that you buy at the deli counter has better flavor than what's going to come in the packs.
00:14:51.650 --> 00:14:54.830
<v SPEAKER_4>Wait, but when you buy American cheese, do you still buy the individually sliced?
00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:59.990
<v SPEAKER_5>I'm nodding my head in shame, but I had not eaten it.
00:14:59.990 --> 00:15:03.470
<v SPEAKER_4>I buy Kraft Deli Deluxe these days because of the plastic waste.
00:15:03.470 --> 00:15:04.810
<v SPEAKER_5>I don't like the plastic waste.
00:15:04.810 --> 00:15:20.470
<v SPEAKER_5>Listen, we don't go through that much of it and it was definitely something I probably hadn't had since I was a kid until I met my husband, but he feels that we've probably talked about this in the egg sandwich recipe episode, but he feels strongly that you need a properly melting cheese for an egg sandwich and an omelet, so he doesn't want, so that's when we started buying it.
00:15:20.470 --> 00:15:23.810
<v SPEAKER_5>But you can buy a package and it's good forever.
00:15:23.810 --> 00:15:25.930
<v SPEAKER_5>So use American cheese.
00:15:25.930 --> 00:15:26.190
<v SPEAKER_4>I do.
00:15:26.190 --> 00:15:27.410
<v SPEAKER_5>The unwrapped kind.
00:15:27.410 --> 00:15:29.770
<v SPEAKER_4>The unwrapped kind for slightly better flavor.
00:15:29.770 --> 00:15:37.170
<v SPEAKER_4>But I've made this with pre-sliced Kraft Deli Deluxe, which is not like fancy deli cheese.
00:15:37.210 --> 00:15:39.370
<v SPEAKER_4>It doesn't have the flavor of like a Lando Lakes or a Boar's Head.
00:15:39.490 --> 00:15:40.610
<v SPEAKER_4>It does, but it works fine.
00:15:40.930 --> 00:15:44.290
<v SPEAKER_4>The American cheese is mainly in there to also just help with the smoothness.
00:15:44.290 --> 00:15:47.230
<v SPEAKER_4>Your soup is real vegetable forward.
00:15:47.990 --> 00:15:51.210
<v SPEAKER_4>It has a chunky broccoli texture.
00:15:51.210 --> 00:15:56.190
<v SPEAKER_4>Whereas my soup just tastes like nacho cheese sauce with chunks of broccoli floating around in it.
00:15:56.190 --> 00:15:57.430
<v SPEAKER_4>No, it tastes a little bit different than that.
00:15:58.090 --> 00:15:59.610
<v SPEAKER_4>But I was really going for that.
00:15:59.610 --> 00:16:03.810
<v SPEAKER_4>I want to make this, if it's going to be cheese soup, it's going to be real cheesy.
00:16:03.810 --> 00:16:09.730
<v SPEAKER_4>So the American cheese is mainly there to help give it more of that texture and really help it melt and emulsify.
00:16:09.730 --> 00:16:19.550
<v SPEAKER_4>So your soup though, one of the problems I found with the recipes I tested, so there are a lot of broccoli cheese soups that are slow cooker recipes.
00:16:19.550 --> 00:16:20.550
<v SPEAKER_4>Interesting.
00:16:20.550 --> 00:16:31.530
<v SPEAKER_4>I also found, so when I went to Panera, as part of the research, at Panera, I'm pretty sure they just keep it in one of those soup, those hot soup thingies.
00:16:31.530 --> 00:16:33.530
<v SPEAKER_5>Which are basically like slow cookers.
00:16:33.530 --> 00:16:38.070
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, like a bain-marie that keeps the soup at whatever, 165 degrees.
00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:44.630
<v SPEAKER_4>It ends up with a real dull broccoli flavor, I think, just because the broccoli gets overcooked.
00:16:44.630 --> 00:16:46.510
<v SPEAKER_4>It keeps cooking.
00:16:46.910 --> 00:16:52.410
<v SPEAKER_4>So it has a drab color and the broccoli is not very bright tasting.
00:16:52.410 --> 00:16:57.350
<v SPEAKER_4>Whereas your soup, you only simmer the broccoli just until it's tender, so it's about 15 minutes.
00:16:57.350 --> 00:17:04.590
<v SPEAKER_4>Then you blend it, it's still real bright green, you serve it immediately or you can, I chilled it and I gave it to my kids for lunch today.
00:17:04.590 --> 00:17:09.110
<v SPEAKER_4>But it ends up a real bright green because you're not cooking the crap out of it.
00:17:09.110 --> 00:17:11.390
<v SPEAKER_5>In your recipe, we start by roasting the broccoli.
00:17:11.390 --> 00:17:12.850
<v SPEAKER_5>You wanted to do that.
00:17:12.850 --> 00:17:14.810
<v SPEAKER_5>You roasted in the stock pot, right?
00:17:14.810 --> 00:17:20.070
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, it's not roasted, but it gets, yeah, you cook it until it caramelized, until it browns really deeply.
00:17:20.210 --> 00:17:22.110
<v SPEAKER_4>So actually what I do is I divide the broccoli in half.
00:17:22.110 --> 00:17:25.510
<v SPEAKER_4>So I have the stems separate from the florets.
00:17:25.510 --> 00:17:36.690
<v SPEAKER_4>When I take the florets, I cut them up real small, and then I put them into a stockpot or a Dutch oven and just let them sit there browning in oil until they're really deeply browned on one side.
00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:48.250
<v SPEAKER_4>I was thinking, all right, if I'm not gonna go for that simmered broccoli flavor, I'm really gonna try and emphasize the other flavor broccoli, which I love, which is a really deeply caramelized broccoli, where it gets a little bit sweet and nutty.
00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:51.950
<v SPEAKER_5>Oh yeah, when you roast it till it's almost black and crispy, it's a charred broccoli.
00:17:52.110 --> 00:17:56.290
<v SPEAKER_4>In fact, this recipe would probably work just fine if you roast the broccoli instead of browning it in the Dutch oven.
00:17:56.370 --> 00:17:57.470
<v SPEAKER_4>I've never tried it, but.
00:17:57.470 --> 00:18:00.630
<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, but it allows you to not have to switch to the oven and stuff like that.
00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:01.810
<v SPEAKER_4>That's right.
00:18:01.810 --> 00:18:05.250
<v SPEAKER_4>You brown the florets in the Dutch oven and then you dump them out.
00:18:05.250 --> 00:18:07.770
<v SPEAKER_4>And then you put your other sort of base ingredients.
00:18:07.770 --> 00:18:11.470
<v SPEAKER_4>So I do sliced onion, carrot, and then the broccoli stems.
00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:14.970
<v SPEAKER_4>And I saute those all without browning them, just until they're kind of soft.
00:18:14.970 --> 00:18:18.190
<v SPEAKER_4>And that becomes sort of the flavor base for the soup, which all gets blended.
00:18:18.570 --> 00:18:24.750
<v SPEAKER_4>Once you add the milk and the potato and you simmer it all, then that all gets blended together with the cheese until it's real smooth.
00:18:25.270 --> 00:18:29.490
<v SPEAKER_4>And then you sort of stir in the charred broccoli again at the very end.
00:18:29.690 --> 00:18:32.010
<v SPEAKER_4>So you're getting like a couple layers of broccoli flavor.
00:18:32.010 --> 00:18:35.790
<v SPEAKER_4>You're getting the base broccoli flavor from the stems is in the background of the soup.
00:18:35.790 --> 00:18:45.270
<v SPEAKER_4>And then you get this kind of sweet, nuttier broccoli from the broccoli that, well, first of all, from the florets that are in there and then also from deglazing the pan after roasting the florets in there.
00:18:45.270 --> 00:18:48.710
<v SPEAKER_5>I mean, I love roasted broccoli, so it sounds amazing to me.
00:18:48.710 --> 00:19:02.310
<v SPEAKER_5>I was thinking when I was revisiting my recipe, since it's a few years old, I was thinking, you know, I think we had discussed, I don't know if it was the chicken soup recipe episode or a different one, but I was saying how much I dislike the boiled vegetable flavor in soups.
00:19:02.310 --> 00:19:07.410
<v SPEAKER_5>And so I always saute them in a little bit of fat to kind of get it a little sweetened up.
00:19:07.410 --> 00:19:09.230
<v SPEAKER_5>And we didn't fully agree on it.
00:19:09.230 --> 00:19:12.990
<v SPEAKER_5>You weren't, I wanted, I think that you should sweat your vegetables.
00:19:12.990 --> 00:19:16.230
<v SPEAKER_5>And yet on the broccoli cheddar soup, I jump it in right for a simmer.
00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:20.710
<v SPEAKER_5>And I think I just wanted it to be that clean taste, maybe just because we don't cook it that long.
00:19:20.710 --> 00:19:25.150
<v SPEAKER_5>When I make the broccoli cheddar soup, it doesn't get that gassy funk.
00:19:25.330 --> 00:19:30.930
<v SPEAKER_5>That boiled vegetable death, maybe because it's a singular vegetable, except for like a little bit of minced carrot.
00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:34.350
<v SPEAKER_5>It doesn't get that kind of stodgy taste.
00:19:34.350 --> 00:19:42.810
<v SPEAKER_4>That flavor actually comes more from boiled onions, like boiled alliums, which in your recipe, you do saute the onions first.
00:19:42.810 --> 00:19:45.630
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, and then you only add the carrots and broccoli at the end.
00:19:45.630 --> 00:19:51.990
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I do find if you're making chicken soup, it's a real conscious choice whether you want to sweat your onions first or whether you want to add them raw.
00:19:51.990 --> 00:19:53.850
<v SPEAKER_4>And you do sweat your onions.
00:19:53.850 --> 00:19:55.630
<v SPEAKER_5>I sweat the onions, but I don't sweat the broccoli.
00:19:55.770 --> 00:19:57.930
<v SPEAKER_5>I just wanted it to be very clean.
00:19:57.930 --> 00:20:05.370
<v SPEAKER_5>I wanted it to be simmered in this buttery, lightly creamy, cheesy broth, and for it to really be like a beautiful piece of broccoli.
00:20:05.370 --> 00:20:06.670
<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, beautiful piece of broccoli.
00:20:06.670 --> 00:20:11.950
<v SPEAKER_5>Which as somebody who didn't grow up with heavy, goopy broccoli cheddar soup, I assume that's what everybody wanted from it.
00:20:11.950 --> 00:20:14.030
<v SPEAKER_5>So, I don't know.
00:20:14.030 --> 00:20:24.710
<v SPEAKER_5>So you use the potato, you use cheddar cheese, and you brown it, you don't roast it, but you basically almost roast it in the pan, the broccoli to begin.
00:20:24.710 --> 00:20:35.350
<v SPEAKER_5>The other thing is that a lot of, especially the copycat recipes for the chains, they use a lot of cream, and you actually just use milk in yours.
00:20:35.350 --> 00:20:39.810
<v SPEAKER_5>I think I use half and half, which is not exactly half.
00:20:40.990 --> 00:20:43.690
<v SPEAKER_4>You use a cup of half and four cups of chicken stock.
00:20:43.730 --> 00:20:44.230
<v SPEAKER_5>Exactly.
00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:45.290
<v SPEAKER_5>But of course, you could play with those.
00:20:45.290 --> 00:20:50.090
<v SPEAKER_4>I think I do two cups of water and three cups of milk, or two cups of chicken stocks and three cups of milk.
00:20:50.090 --> 00:20:58.190
<v SPEAKER_5>You found that milk was all you needed to get the creaminess you wanted, or maybe because you were getting it from the potato and all that cheese, you didn't feel like you needed the richness of the cream too.
00:20:58.190 --> 00:20:59.750
<v SPEAKER_4>You can mess around with it as much as you want.
00:21:00.470 --> 00:21:04.070
<v SPEAKER_4>It's not going to hurt it if you really want it to be creamier, you can add more cream.
00:21:04.070 --> 00:21:08.370
<v SPEAKER_4>But yeah, I did really want that real bright cheese and broccoli flavor to come out.
00:21:09.090 --> 00:21:15.270
<v SPEAKER_4>Like I said, cream is always going to make anything you have taste rounder and smoother.
00:21:15.270 --> 00:21:18.870
<v SPEAKER_4>Cream is like the beer goggles of food.
00:21:18.870 --> 00:21:20.590
<v SPEAKER_5>But it's also a blocker too.
00:21:20.590 --> 00:21:27.710
<v SPEAKER_5>Like I said, if there's too much cream in a soup, I feel like you can't taste all the layering work you did to get a nice vegetable base in there.
00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:30.350
<v SPEAKER_4>I've got mustard powder and hot sauce in mine also.
00:21:30.350 --> 00:21:31.010
<v SPEAKER_5>That's right.
00:21:31.010 --> 00:21:35.030
<v SPEAKER_5>I bought a new tin of mustard powder for you because mine was ancient.
00:21:35.030 --> 00:21:42.130
<v SPEAKER_4>What I find works best is actually if you grate the cheese and then you toss it with a little bit of mustard powder so that it spreads out and doesn't clump up, it incorporates real easily.
00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:47.430
<v SPEAKER_4>But I find that it doesn't taste mustardy, but it brings a little bit more sharpness.
00:21:47.430 --> 00:21:51.050
<v SPEAKER_4>If you have a sharp cheddar cheese, it's just going to accentuate the sharpness a little bit.
00:21:51.050 --> 00:21:52.070
<v SPEAKER_5>I agree with you.
00:21:52.070 --> 00:21:56.150
<v SPEAKER_4>Dried mustard and hot sauce are the two ingredients I very commonly will add to.
00:21:56.150 --> 00:21:58.530
<v SPEAKER_4>By hot sauce, I mean something like a Frank's Red Hot.
00:21:58.530 --> 00:22:02.990
<v SPEAKER_4>It's like a vinegary hot sauce that's not especially spicy.
00:22:02.990 --> 00:22:04.150
<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, it's got the very clean taste.
00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:07.330
<v SPEAKER_5>It doesn't taste like cumin or roasted chilies or anything like that.
00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:08.870
<v SPEAKER_5>It's really just-
00:22:08.870 --> 00:22:09.990
<v SPEAKER_4>It's not particularly hot.
00:22:09.990 --> 00:22:11.510
<v SPEAKER_4>It just brightens things.
00:22:11.510 --> 00:22:15.470
<v SPEAKER_5>Somebody is going to ask if they can use prepared mustard, but it's not the same.
00:22:15.470 --> 00:22:17.730
<v SPEAKER_5>It really has a different flavor profile.
00:22:17.730 --> 00:22:21.590
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, most prepared mustards are either going to be real mild.
00:22:21.590 --> 00:22:30.170
<v SPEAKER_4>If you're buying something like a Dijon mustard, that's going to be made with vinegar or wine, and acidity actually really tames mustard flavor.
00:22:30.170 --> 00:22:35.250
<v SPEAKER_4>If you take dried mustard powder and you mix it, you've reconstituted into a mustard sauce, prepared mustard.
00:22:35.570 --> 00:22:44.410
<v SPEAKER_4>If you mix it with just water, it ends up significantly hotter, like spicier tasting, than if you mix it with water and vinegar or water and wine.
00:22:44.410 --> 00:22:48.510
<v SPEAKER_5>But now I'm going to put it in my mac and cheese and anything else with cheddar.
00:22:48.510 --> 00:22:52.610
<v SPEAKER_5>So I know how to use the rest of my, you know, like two tablespoons in.
00:22:55.030 --> 00:23:01.530
<v SPEAKER_4>We will have more of the recipe where we're talking about broccoli cheddar soup and things that are tangentially related to it in just a moment.
00:23:14.166 --> 00:23:20.346
<v SPEAKER_4>So today, we've got a question from our fellow Radiotopia hosts, Nigel Poor and Earlonne Woods from Ear Hustle.
00:23:20.346 --> 00:23:25.046
<v SPEAKER_5>If you've never listened to Ear Hustle, you definitely should be, and you're in for such a treat.
00:23:25.046 --> 00:23:33.186
<v SPEAKER_5>Nigel and Earlonne co-created the show while Earlonne was incarcerated at San Quentin State Prison, where Nigel was a volunteer teaching photography.
00:23:33.186 --> 00:23:41.666
<v SPEAKER_5>Happy to share that Earlonne has been out for several years, but they still work with inside teams at San Quentin and also now at the California Institute for Women.
00:23:42.026 --> 00:23:46.866
<v SPEAKER_5>They show us what life is like inside prison and on the outside post incarceration.
00:23:46.866 --> 00:23:50.146
<v SPEAKER_5>I know it sounds like it would be dark or depressing, but it's anything but.
00:23:50.146 --> 00:23:52.106
<v SPEAKER_4>I agree and I think the show is really fascinating.
00:23:52.106 --> 00:24:02.526
<v SPEAKER_4>A lot of the same things that we deal with on the outside, like romantic trouble, roommate troubles, parenting troubles, folks on the inside are also dealing with, but with a layer of complication from being incarcerated.
00:24:02.526 --> 00:24:07.886
<v SPEAKER_4>Like how do you parent where the only contact you have are 15 minute phone calls with your child?
00:24:07.886 --> 00:24:09.266
<v SPEAKER_5>Everyone, please go check it out.
00:24:09.386 --> 00:24:12.386
<v SPEAKER_5>But first, let's see what Nigel and Earlonne want to ask us.
00:24:12.386 --> 00:24:13.306
<v SPEAKER_6>I'm Nigel Poor.
00:24:13.306 --> 00:24:14.566
<v SPEAKER_7>And I'm Earlonne Woods.
00:24:14.566 --> 00:24:17.726
<v SPEAKER_7>And we are the co-hosts of the Ear Hustle Podcast.
00:24:17.726 --> 00:24:21.226
<v SPEAKER_6>And Earlonne, what does broccoli mean?
00:24:21.226 --> 00:24:23.646
<v SPEAKER_4>Money.
00:24:23.646 --> 00:24:24.686
<v SPEAKER_7>Money is good for you.
00:24:24.686 --> 00:24:25.306
<v SPEAKER_7>It's green.
00:24:25.306 --> 00:24:25.886
<v SPEAKER_4>It's green.
00:24:25.886 --> 00:24:26.666
<v SPEAKER_7>Green bags.
00:24:26.666 --> 00:24:33.026
<v SPEAKER_6>But I wonder how good the green broccoli that you eat is for you.
00:24:33.026 --> 00:24:34.006
<v SPEAKER_7>I like broccoli.
00:24:34.006 --> 00:24:34.466
<v SPEAKER_1>You do?
00:24:34.466 --> 00:24:36.786
<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah, I just don't like that broccoli that you like.
00:24:36.786 --> 00:24:38.226
<v SPEAKER_6>Oh yeah, so that's my question.
00:24:38.626 --> 00:24:43.346
<v SPEAKER_4>Broccoli, broccolini, broccoli rabe, are they interchangeable?
00:24:43.346 --> 00:24:46.066
<v SPEAKER_2>Every time I see a recipe, I wonder, can I use broccoli rabe?
00:24:46.066 --> 00:24:47.166
<v SPEAKER_1>Because that's my favorite.
00:24:47.166 --> 00:24:48.946
<v SPEAKER_4>So yeah, I want to know that.
00:24:48.946 --> 00:24:50.766
<v SPEAKER_4>Are those three things interchangeable?
00:24:50.766 --> 00:24:51.926
<v SPEAKER_6>What's your question?
00:24:51.926 --> 00:24:58.886
<v SPEAKER_7>My question is, as being a part of the diabetic gang, I'm trying to figure out how to make a nice broccoli.
00:24:59.466 --> 00:25:03.926
<v SPEAKER_7>The only way I know how to make it is steam some up, and put a little seasoning on it.
00:25:03.926 --> 00:25:04.486
<v SPEAKER_7>That's it.
00:25:04.486 --> 00:25:05.046
<v SPEAKER_6>Kind of boring.
00:25:05.046 --> 00:25:05.726
<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah, that's boring.
00:25:05.726 --> 00:25:07.186
<v SPEAKER_7>So what do I take to a party?
00:25:07.386 --> 00:25:09.706
<v SPEAKER_7>What do I cook for somebody?
00:25:09.706 --> 00:25:10.046
<v SPEAKER_7>Broccoli.
00:25:10.046 --> 00:25:10.386
<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah.
00:25:11.186 --> 00:25:14.086
<v SPEAKER_6>How can Earlonne impress some of his broccoli skills?
00:25:14.086 --> 00:25:16.526
<v SPEAKER_6>Which broccoli should I use?
00:25:16.526 --> 00:25:17.126
<v SPEAKER_6>Two good questions.
00:25:17.126 --> 00:25:19.406
<v SPEAKER_7>Not the broccolini though, but that's your favorite though.
00:25:20.466 --> 00:25:22.566
<v SPEAKER_7>I don't like to put a stalk on it.
00:25:24.466 --> 00:25:25.826
<v SPEAKER_5>Well, broccolini Rob is bitter.
00:25:25.826 --> 00:25:27.106
<v SPEAKER_5>It's a lot more leafy.
00:25:27.106 --> 00:25:31.246
<v SPEAKER_5>I love it, but I don't know how well it would work as a swap in most broccoli recipes.
00:25:31.246 --> 00:25:31.686
<v SPEAKER_5>How do you feel?
00:25:31.686 --> 00:25:33.306
<v SPEAKER_5>Broccolini, I think, is the easier swap.
00:25:34.106 --> 00:25:34.266
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:25:34.266 --> 00:25:37.566
<v SPEAKER_4>Broccolini and broccoli are very similar.
00:25:37.566 --> 00:25:43.586
<v SPEAKER_4>They are the same plant but a different shape, and I think they are literally the same plant, just a different stage in life.
00:25:44.126 --> 00:25:51.486
<v SPEAKER_4>Broccolini tends to have the smaller little flowers and florets that are more plant-like and not so tight yet.
00:25:51.706 --> 00:25:58.686
<v SPEAKER_4>In most recipes, you can interchange them, although full-grown broccoli tends to have a firmer texture.
00:25:58.686 --> 00:26:05.986
<v SPEAKER_4>Whereas, broccolini, I think of broccolini more almost as like broccoli-flavored asparagus.
00:26:05.986 --> 00:26:13.066
<v SPEAKER_4>It's got more of that slightly limper texture, and it's longer and skinnier as opposed to chunkier like a regular broccoli does.
00:26:13.066 --> 00:26:16.246
<v SPEAKER_4>But that said, you can exchange it in most recipes.
00:26:16.246 --> 00:26:27.006
<v SPEAKER_4>The places where you wouldn't be able to exchange broccolini for broccoli are recipes where you're really heavily roasting the broccoli and you need it to have a bit of structure.
00:26:27.006 --> 00:26:37.146
<v SPEAKER_4>Otherwise, broccolini, I think, does better on a grill or sautéed or stir-fried as opposed to like roasted in the oven where you need a little bit more structure and a little bit more time in there.
00:26:37.146 --> 00:26:43.086
<v SPEAKER_4>Broccoli Rob is a different plant, or broccoli Robert if you don't know it too well, is a different plant entirely.
00:26:43.086 --> 00:26:46.446
<v SPEAKER_4>Not entirely, same family, but it has a very different flavor.
00:26:46.446 --> 00:26:50.406
<v SPEAKER_4>It's real bitter and it has a sort of much more sharpness to it.
00:26:50.406 --> 00:26:54.346
<v SPEAKER_4>So broccoli Rob recipes, you tend to want to cook the broccoli longer.
00:26:54.346 --> 00:27:03.026
<v SPEAKER_4>And so oftentimes a broccoli Rob recipe will start with blanching it in the big pot of water in order to kind of pull out some of that bitterness before you then saute it.
00:27:03.026 --> 00:27:11.606
<v SPEAKER_4>And it's not that common that broccoli Rob you'll have it sort of bright green and al dente more often you're going to be cooking it down until it gets a little bit milder.
00:27:11.606 --> 00:27:22.566
<v SPEAKER_4>But I was in California at the bakery that I'm a partner at, at Bokhouse, and they have a cafe in Burlingame where we just put a broccoli Rob and provolone grilled cheese on the menu.
00:27:22.566 --> 00:27:25.166
<v SPEAKER_4>So I was testing out a whole bunch of broccoli Rob techniques.
00:27:25.306 --> 00:27:46.546
<v SPEAKER_4>But broccoli Rob, I'd say the most well-known, at least American version of broccoli Rob would be in a Philadelphia roast pork sandwich where you have roast pork, and then you have broccoli Rob that's been blanched, and then cook down usually with garlic and chili flakes until it's really tender, and it becomes this juicy sandwich ingredient.
00:27:46.626 --> 00:27:57.046
<v SPEAKER_4>I think that was the idea I had when I put it into this grilled cheese also, that it's going to have this juicy vegetalness, a little bit of bitterness, a little bit of sharpness, it goes real well with provolone cheese.
00:27:57.046 --> 00:28:00.786
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm with Nigel that broccoli Rob is one of my favorite forms of broccoli.
00:28:00.786 --> 00:28:03.186
<v SPEAKER_4>It does take more work than regular broccoli does though.
00:28:03.186 --> 00:28:04.126
<v SPEAKER_5>Not a lot though.
00:28:04.126 --> 00:28:12.066
<v SPEAKER_5>I think I have a panini in my first book with a broccoli Rob and different kinds of cheese, and I agree with you, it's really good in a sandwich.
00:28:12.066 --> 00:28:19.966
<v SPEAKER_5>And in my last book, my husband in particular loves broccoli Rob, so I make it a lot, where I do a really quick saute of it.
00:28:19.966 --> 00:28:28.966
<v SPEAKER_5>I actually don't blanch it first, but I add a little bit of, I tend to cook it in the pan with garlic, pepper flakes, like the standard ingredients, I love it with lemon zest too.
00:28:28.966 --> 00:28:49.606
<v SPEAKER_5>And then what I do is I add a couple, almost like when you add little water at the end when you're doing pot stickers, I add a couple tablespoons of water, put the lid on, let it steam for just two or three minutes, I kind of steam that off, and I feel like that softens a little bit of the bitterness and gives you a really nice texture without having to do the whole blanch thing, which I think eliminates too much of the broccoli Rob flavor.
00:28:49.606 --> 00:28:54.466
<v SPEAKER_5>But I could do a whole episode on broccoli Rob, that's how strongly I feel about it.
00:28:54.466 --> 00:29:09.426
<v SPEAKER_5>But to answer the other question, it was Earlonne's question was about how else he can make broccoli, and I feel like if you have not made a crispy, almost caramelized roasted broccoli before, I find it to be just life-changing.
00:29:09.426 --> 00:29:10.806
<v SPEAKER_5>You cook it at a really high heat.
00:29:10.806 --> 00:29:13.906
<v SPEAKER_5>I usually do it at 425 or even 450.
00:29:13.906 --> 00:29:18.866
<v SPEAKER_5>I usually use a bit of olive oil, just a few tablespoons, so it could still stay with a diabetic diet.
00:29:18.866 --> 00:29:20.586
<v SPEAKER_5>I use salt, red pepper flakes.
00:29:20.706 --> 00:29:24.806
<v SPEAKER_5>I like to add lemon zest into the mixture and then a couple of cloves of garlic.
00:29:24.806 --> 00:29:26.506
<v SPEAKER_5>You could probably use five or six.
00:29:26.506 --> 00:29:27.906
<v SPEAKER_5>I just use a couple.
00:29:27.906 --> 00:29:30.306
<v SPEAKER_5>And you roast it at really high heat.
00:29:30.306 --> 00:29:33.886
<v SPEAKER_5>All the florets get really crispy.
00:29:33.886 --> 00:29:34.786
<v SPEAKER_5>And the whole thing-
00:29:34.786 --> 00:29:35.226
<v SPEAKER_4>Like frizzled.
00:29:35.226 --> 00:29:37.706
<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, they're frizzled, they're crunchy, they're dark.
00:29:37.706 --> 00:29:39.466
<v SPEAKER_5>We fight for those corner pieces.
00:29:39.466 --> 00:29:40.986
<v SPEAKER_5>It's all corner pieces.
00:29:40.986 --> 00:29:48.126
<v SPEAKER_5>And then the very end, right before we eat it, but don't wait once you've done this, I squeeze some of that lemon juice from the lemon I've zested over it.
00:29:48.206 --> 00:29:51.646
<v SPEAKER_5>And we could just wolf down an entire pan of it.
00:29:51.646 --> 00:29:54.646
<v SPEAKER_5>It is crispy and delicious.
00:29:54.646 --> 00:29:58.386
<v SPEAKER_5>And that's the flavor I know you were trying to get a little bit, a layer of in your soup.
00:29:58.386 --> 00:30:01.786
<v SPEAKER_5>But I just feel like a pan of that is just one of my favorite things to eat.
00:30:01.786 --> 00:30:05.966
<v SPEAKER_4>And the trick is you want to cook it until you think it's overcooked.
00:30:05.966 --> 00:30:08.286
<v SPEAKER_4>Like you want to go longer than you think you should.
00:30:08.286 --> 00:30:11.846
<v SPEAKER_4>Like if it looks brown, but there's still bright green spots remaining, like you just got to keep going.
00:30:11.846 --> 00:30:18.166
<v SPEAKER_4>Like you want it to be real dark and brown and like have some bits that look almost like dried out, at least that's how I like it.
00:30:18.166 --> 00:30:21.286
<v SPEAKER_4>Where yeah, it really tastes like crispy.
00:30:21.286 --> 00:30:26.046
<v SPEAKER_4>Like there's bits that are like, you know, almost like dehydrated because of how much moisture they've lost.
00:30:26.046 --> 00:30:35.826
<v SPEAKER_5>And the other thing I was going to say is just from a meal prep perspective, I tend to always end up making too little because I'll fill the pan with like a normal amount of space and forget how much it's going to shrink up.
00:30:35.826 --> 00:30:39.326
<v SPEAKER_5>And then we end up with like only like a couple cups and we go through it.
00:30:39.326 --> 00:30:41.626
<v SPEAKER_5>So you can actually crowd the pan a bit.
00:30:41.626 --> 00:30:49.926
<v SPEAKER_5>Usually we're against that because we say it's going to steam instead of roast, but it's going to shrink up so much that it will still get brown and crisp and you'll be happy because you have a fuller amount to eat at the end.
00:30:49.926 --> 00:30:53.726
<v SPEAKER_5>You will easily go through a tree or two of broccoli if you cook it this way.
00:30:53.726 --> 00:30:54.326
<v SPEAKER_4>A tree or two?
00:30:54.326 --> 00:30:55.106
<v SPEAKER_5>Never.
00:30:55.106 --> 00:30:55.966
<v SPEAKER_5>A tree or two?
00:30:55.966 --> 00:30:56.586
<v SPEAKER_5>Is that what you call it?
00:30:56.586 --> 00:30:58.226
<v SPEAKER_4>You measure broccoli by the by the tree?
00:30:58.226 --> 00:31:05.646
<v SPEAKER_5>Well, I mean, some of them are more stem heavy and some of them are like big ground globes, like almost more like cauliflower with a little bit of stem.
00:31:05.646 --> 00:31:07.046
<v SPEAKER_5>So it depends on what kind you're getting.
00:31:07.186 --> 00:31:09.366
<v SPEAKER_5>You could buy a lot of broccoli.
00:31:09.366 --> 00:31:17.606
<v SPEAKER_5>But he was talking about bringing it somewhere and I'm like, no, you're never going to leave your apartment because you're just going to stay there and eat this entire pan standing up because it's so good.
00:31:17.606 --> 00:31:18.246
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:31:18.446 --> 00:31:20.366
<v SPEAKER_4>Would you say you might eat two or tree of them?
00:31:20.366 --> 00:31:22.506
<v SPEAKER_5>Yes.
00:31:22.506 --> 00:31:23.046
<v SPEAKER_5>Why not?
00:31:23.166 --> 00:31:30.166
<v SPEAKER_4>What in the family tree of broccoli cheddar soup and broccoli casseroles, are those almost the same dish for you?
00:31:30.166 --> 00:31:31.766
<v SPEAKER_4>Like a broccoli and cheese casserole?
00:31:31.766 --> 00:31:34.206
<v SPEAKER_5>I haven't done a classic broccoli cheese casserole.
00:31:34.206 --> 00:31:40.126
<v SPEAKER_5>I've had broccoli, cheese, broccoli, cheddar and wild rice casserole on my site, which I absolutely love.
00:31:40.126 --> 00:31:42.726
<v SPEAKER_5>It's more of a Thanksgiving side or a winter side.
00:31:42.726 --> 00:31:45.826
<v SPEAKER_5>But I do think of broccoli and cheddar as being very married.
00:31:45.826 --> 00:31:47.606
<v SPEAKER_5>Like I have broccoli cheddar fritters.
00:31:47.606 --> 00:31:50.866
<v SPEAKER_4>Would broccoli be one of your top choices for like a mac and cheese?
00:31:51.106 --> 00:31:59.566
<v SPEAKER_5>I would, although I will get my family to eat more broccoli if I keep it out of the mac and cheese.
00:31:59.566 --> 00:32:01.466
<v SPEAKER_5>Like you would put a couple florets in.
00:32:01.466 --> 00:32:02.406
<v SPEAKER_4>You're a non-mixing family.
00:32:02.406 --> 00:32:05.346
<v SPEAKER_5>I could get them to eat a whole bowl of broccoli versus like the three florets.
00:32:05.426 --> 00:32:07.606
<v SPEAKER_5>I would put in and probably infuriate them.
00:32:07.606 --> 00:32:11.706
<v SPEAKER_4>What about on a baked potato like cheese sauce and broccoli?
00:32:11.706 --> 00:32:13.646
<v SPEAKER_4>Do you do broccoli on your baked potato?
00:32:13.646 --> 00:32:14.826
<v SPEAKER_5>Yes, I would definitely do it.
00:32:14.826 --> 00:32:17.486
<v SPEAKER_5>I love a loaded, very loaded baked potato.
00:32:17.486 --> 00:32:23.806
<v SPEAKER_4>I think there's something about the way the florets and broccoli pick up the cheese that makes them go real well together.
00:32:23.806 --> 00:32:28.326
<v SPEAKER_4>The flavors also, but I think for me, it's like a lot of it is just the way the cheese coats the broccoli nicely.
00:32:38.342 --> 00:32:42.022
<v SPEAKER_5>Kenji, can you waffle broccoli cheddar soup?
00:32:42.022 --> 00:32:54.042
<v SPEAKER_4>No, but sometimes I make savory waffles, and I have made broccoli, I have put broccoli and cheddar cheese in waffles in the past, and that comes out actually pretty well.
00:32:54.042 --> 00:33:00.122
<v SPEAKER_4>The broccoli does get a little bit of those little crispy brown edges, and cheese, I find, gets really nice when you stick it in a waffle.
00:33:00.122 --> 00:33:05.342
<v SPEAKER_4>Broccoli, cheddar, and chorizo, like little bits of diced chorizo in a waffle is real good.
00:33:05.342 --> 00:33:12.282
<v SPEAKER_4>But I don't think you could take, maybe you could take just the regular broccoli cheese soup and add like flour and eggs to it and waffle it.
00:33:12.282 --> 00:33:13.662
<v SPEAKER_4>You probably could.
00:33:13.662 --> 00:33:14.662
<v SPEAKER_5>I feel like you could.
00:33:14.662 --> 00:33:22.342
<v SPEAKER_5>At first, I was cringing because I was imagining pouring a ladle of soup and I was horrified and squicked out at the same time.
00:33:22.342 --> 00:33:25.422
<v SPEAKER_5>But then I'm like, I actually think a savory broccoli with a waffle could be really good.
00:33:25.422 --> 00:33:27.722
<v SPEAKER_5>I would want to keep the broccoli pieces pretty small.
00:33:27.722 --> 00:33:34.342
<v SPEAKER_5>Like I don't want like pulling apart, like a chunk of broccoli to fall out on my plate, but like keep it pretty minced.
00:33:34.622 --> 00:33:40.782
<v SPEAKER_4>But you know what, I got leftover broccoli cheese soup and a waffle iron at home, so I will give it a shot.
00:33:40.782 --> 00:33:43.962
<v SPEAKER_5>Kenji, can you taco a broccoli cheddar soup?
00:33:43.962 --> 00:33:55.002
<v SPEAKER_4>Again, I don't think so, but when we were talking about how well broccoli and cheddar go together, I think a charred, like a really deeply roasted broccoli taco with a cheese sauce would be delicious.
00:33:55.002 --> 00:33:55.602
<v SPEAKER_5>Really good.
00:33:56.762 --> 00:34:04.242
<v SPEAKER_5>On my website, I have a cauliflower and cheese quesadilla with like little bits of cauliflower that you've really almost caramelized in the pan.
00:34:04.242 --> 00:34:08.302
<v SPEAKER_5>I'm really charred and with poblanos and it's excellence.
00:34:08.302 --> 00:34:10.222
<v SPEAKER_5>I think broccoli would work there too.
00:34:10.222 --> 00:34:10.682
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:34:10.682 --> 00:34:12.722
<v SPEAKER_4>I think we should make brocco tacos.
00:34:12.722 --> 00:34:14.342
<v SPEAKER_5>Brocco tacos.
00:34:14.342 --> 00:34:15.982
<v SPEAKER_5>Kids are going to be so excited.
00:34:15.982 --> 00:34:20.582
<v SPEAKER_5>It sounds like something you would want to punish, like a punishment food for kids, but our kids both love broccoli.
00:34:21.502 --> 00:34:22.522
<v SPEAKER_5>I could push it into-
00:34:22.522 --> 00:34:22.942
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:34:22.942 --> 00:34:24.102
<v SPEAKER_4>My kids would love brocco tacos.
00:34:24.102 --> 00:34:28.962
<v SPEAKER_5>I feel like I could push it enough and they would stop liking it, but so far we're doing good on it.
00:34:28.962 --> 00:34:31.022
<v SPEAKER_5>Kenji, how does broccoli cheddar soup leftover?
00:34:31.082 --> 00:34:33.542
<v SPEAKER_5>Because I feel like it can be a tricky one to reheat.
00:34:33.542 --> 00:34:36.882
<v SPEAKER_4>I find it leftovers fine as long as you chill it fast enough.
00:34:36.882 --> 00:34:42.042
<v SPEAKER_4>If you let it sit hot in a pot on the pan and the broccoli gets drab, then no.
00:34:42.042 --> 00:34:47.582
<v SPEAKER_4>But if you pour it into smaller containers so that it cools faster and then you get it in the fridge, I find it reheats fine.
00:34:47.582 --> 00:34:50.142
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, I heated some up this morning.
00:34:50.142 --> 00:34:51.502
<v SPEAKER_4>It tasted fine to me.
00:34:51.602 --> 00:34:59.162
<v SPEAKER_4>It does lose a little bit of its fresh, bright green flavors, especially with your recipe, because yours is such a real green recipe.
00:34:59.862 --> 00:35:06.762
<v SPEAKER_4>But that said, there's probably millions of people a day who eat reheated broccoli and cheddar soup at Panera.
00:35:06.822 --> 00:35:07.962
<v SPEAKER_4>They're just fine with it.
00:35:07.962 --> 00:35:08.562
<v SPEAKER_5>Just fine.
00:35:08.562 --> 00:35:14.102
<v SPEAKER_5>I wonder if they treat it in any way to keep it from getting that kind of soggy, brown broccoli.
00:35:14.102 --> 00:35:14.942
<v SPEAKER_5>I'll have to find out.
00:35:14.942 --> 00:35:18.062
<v SPEAKER_5>I'm going to go in the field research and report back.
00:35:18.062 --> 00:35:21.822
<v SPEAKER_5>Could you cook broccoli cheddar soup in a pan with butter?
00:35:21.922 --> 00:35:23.102
<v SPEAKER_5>I would know.
00:35:24.602 --> 00:35:32.482
<v SPEAKER_4>I think maybe in a similar to a waffle situation, if you added some flour and eggs to it and made broccoli cheese pancakes cooked in butter, sure.
00:35:32.482 --> 00:35:36.542
<v SPEAKER_5>Broccoli cheddar omelet would be really good, or frittata.
00:35:36.542 --> 00:35:43.442
<v SPEAKER_5>Can you get broccoli cheddar soup out of kids clothes, or will you find out tonight when they come home with their empty thermoses because they love it so much?
00:35:44.802 --> 00:35:45.962
<v SPEAKER_4>We'll find out.
00:35:46.042 --> 00:35:49.022
<v SPEAKER_4>They went to school with broccoli cheddar soup and sweaters.
00:35:49.062 --> 00:35:50.722
<v SPEAKER_5>Oh, God.
00:35:50.762 --> 00:35:53.802
<v SPEAKER_5>It's going to be deeply woven, deeply woven.
00:35:55.182 --> 00:35:57.042
<v SPEAKER_4>I imagine it'll come out just fine.
00:35:57.042 --> 00:36:00.982
<v SPEAKER_4>Cheese tends to come out okay from clothes, I think, and broccoli comes out fine from clothes.
00:36:00.982 --> 00:36:06.082
<v SPEAKER_5>Well, we did get through the whole episode without anybody making any fart jokes, I guess.
00:36:06.082 --> 00:36:06.642
<v SPEAKER_4>Any fart jokes?
00:36:06.642 --> 00:36:15.542
<v SPEAKER_5>Do you feel on the Internet when you post anything about broccoli that people always want to tell you things about what it does to their body that you did not ask?
00:36:15.542 --> 00:36:15.882
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:36:15.882 --> 00:36:19.382
<v SPEAKER_4>Broccoli does do things to my insides a little bit, yeah.
00:36:19.482 --> 00:36:21.642
<v SPEAKER_5>So I expect there's going to be some commentary on that.
00:36:29.003 --> 00:36:30.383
<v SPEAKER_5>That's it for today's episode.
00:36:30.383 --> 00:36:31.503
<v SPEAKER_5>We want to hear from you.
00:36:31.503 --> 00:36:34.363
<v SPEAKER_5>Is there another recipe or food you want us to chat about?
00:36:34.363 --> 00:36:37.403
<v SPEAKER_5>Any comments or questions about broccoli cheddar soup?
00:36:37.403 --> 00:36:41.463
<v SPEAKER_5>Tell us at therecipepodcast.com or at Kenji and Deb on Instagram.
00:36:41.463 --> 00:36:45.083
<v SPEAKER_4>I specifically want to know what people do with broccoli and cheddar.
00:36:45.083 --> 00:36:52.003
<v SPEAKER_4>Like, what are some non-baked potato, non-casserole, non-broccoli cheddar soup situations where you do broccoli and cheddar together?
00:36:52.063 --> 00:36:53.423
<v SPEAKER_5>Bracca tacos.
00:36:55.323 --> 00:37:00.003
<v SPEAKER_5>The Recipe is created and co-hosted by Deb Perelman and Kenji Lopez-Alt.
00:37:00.003 --> 00:37:06.163
<v SPEAKER_5>Our producers are Jocelyn González, Perry Gregory, and Pedro Rafael Rosado of PRX Productions.
00:37:06.163 --> 00:37:14.843
<v SPEAKER_4>Yuri Lasordo is the managing producer, Emmanuel Johnson is the audience engagement manager, and the executive producer for Radiotopia is Audrey Martavich.
00:37:14.843 --> 00:37:15.503
<v SPEAKER_4>Thanks for listening.
00:37:20.163 --> 00:37:29.103
<v SPEAKER_4>The Recipe with Kenji and Deb is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent creator-owned listener-supported podcasts.
00:37:29.103 --> 00:37:32.543
<v SPEAKER_4>Discover audio with vision at radiotopia.fm.
00:37:37.083 --> 00:37:39.163
<v SPEAKER_2>Radiotopia, from PRX.
