Ep 2: Meatloaf
Kenji and Deb have history with meatloaf that goes way, way back, to summer camp in the 80s. It was not love at first taste, but Deb has a moment of clarity and achieves meatloaf enlightenment. Kenji and Deb chew over “meat batter”, how many Meat Loaf references in one podcast episode constitutes audio malpractice, and if parents who send their teenage children to the store for one ingredient are monsters.
Recipes Mentioned:
Deb’s Turkey Meatloaf for Skeptics (from Smitten Kitchen Keepers)
Kenji’s Classic Meatloaf (excerpted from The Food Lab, courtesy of Serious Eats)
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The Recipe with Kenji and Deb
Episode 2
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<v SPEAKER_4>So my very serious question is, how many Meat Loaf music references can I make before you guys cut off my mic stream and my video screen and take my name off this podcast?
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<v SPEAKER_4>I don't know why, but growing up at summer camp, we listened to an absolutely reprehensible amount of Meat Loaf.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Some of my earliest Meat Loaf memories were also from summer camp.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so it wasn't like a completely unusual thing.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I didn't know why we were listening to this.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Shouldn't we have been listening to Madonna?
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<v SPEAKER_4>It was the 80s.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Would you have a favorite Meat Loaf song?
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<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, Paradise by the Dashboard Light.
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<v SPEAKER_2>My dad would do that on karaoke.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We had a karaoke machine growing up and we would do that, yeah.
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<v SPEAKER_4>All eight minutes and 20 seconds, because I did that at a birthday party last year, all eight minutes and 27 seconds of it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I did not once need to read the words from the screen and I think I scared my friends a little bit.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Paradise by the Dashboard Lights is one of those karaoke songs that has a partner involved, right?
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<v SPEAKER_2>There's like the blue text and the red text.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I brought one person in at one point, one of my best friends.
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<v SPEAKER_2>To help you with the male vocals or the female vocals, were you on Meat Loaf the whole time?
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<v SPEAKER_4>I think on that I was on the female, but then I went back to the Meat Loaf part.
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<v SPEAKER_4>There was a little bit of one involved, but I did not miss a beat.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Including the sports announcer.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Including the sports announcer.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Apparently, Meat Loaf was a lifelong Yankees fan.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Plus one, I guess.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Or however you see it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So I'm going to see how many Meat Loaf music references I can sneak in.
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<v SPEAKER_4>From PRX's Radiotopia, this is The Recipe with Kenji and Deb.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Where we help you discover your own perfect recipes.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Kenji is the author of The Food Lab and The Walk and A Columnist for The New York Times.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen, and she's also the author of three best-selling cookbooks.
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<v SPEAKER_4>We're both professional home cooks, which means that we can and will make the same recipe 57 times in our quest for the perfect version.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And on this show, we're gonna share our techniques and ingredients so that you can figure out what works best for you.
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<v SPEAKER_4>This week we're talking about Meat Loaf.
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<v SPEAKER_2>That's next on The Recipe, so stick around.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I have always felt fundamentally that meatloaf has a PR problem.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I feel like it's just a loaf of meat.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Like nothing about that makes my heart or stomach palpitate with hunger.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Like it just sounds, it does not sound like something you would eat by choice, but I didn't grow up eating meatloaf.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It wasn't a thing that we had on the table.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And it wasn't, unlike something that I haven't grown up with that I was very curious about as an adult, I was deeply uncurious about it as an adult.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And it actually took a reader on my site.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I went all the way back in the archives to find this comment last night because I'm weird and I love being able to read final comments.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But basically it was 2009 and I shared this recipe that was adapted from an old, I think it was a gourmet recipe for these baked chicken meatballs.
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<v SPEAKER_4>They've got bits of pancetta and then there's a little bit of Parmesan and parsley.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And it's almost like an Italian-ish chicken meatloaf.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I had said that I found it really interesting that I really liked meatballs, even though I'm really not into meatloaf.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And someone's, Deb, meatloaf is just a giant meatball.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I thought I didn't like meatloaf either.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I was like, really?
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<v SPEAKER_4>And that was just like light bulbs going on.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So how about you, Kenji?
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<v SPEAKER_4>How did you come to meatloaf in your life?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Did you grow up with it?
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<v SPEAKER_2>We definitely had meatloaf at the school cafeteria.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I think my fondest memories of meatloaf are from summer camp on meatloaf days.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We actually had a very good cook at our summer camp.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We would listen to meatloaf and then go eat meatloaf.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Like a full circle.
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<v SPEAKER_2>His name was Glenn.
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<v SPEAKER_2>He was a wonderful cook.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But yeah, my memories of meatloaf are from summer camp mainly.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We had it at home occasionally.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Sometimes we would get TV dinners that you could get with sliced meatloaf in them.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I know you were an ingredient family, so you probably did not have TV dinners growing up, but we had TV dinners as like-
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<v SPEAKER_4>I know, they really ruined everything.
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<v SPEAKER_2>As a once a month treat, TV dinners.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And those would either come with meatloaf or with Salisbury steak, which is essentially another shape of meatloaf.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's another like point on the ball to loaf spectrum.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So it didn't sound appealing to me, and I didn't really understand why you would eat it, but I love meatballs.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And so for me, so that was probably like 2009.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And then when I wrote my first cookbook when it came out in 2012, I did indeed have a meatloaf recipe in there, but I was still a little bit of a meatloaf skeptic.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I called them meatloaves, and they were really just large meatballs.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So they're basically just individual meatloaves.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And for some reason, having them round, even just bigger than a regular meatball size, made it okay for me.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Was this before baking meatloaves in a muffin tin craze happened, or around the same time?
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's interesting because in that same comment section from 2009, I saw a lot of comments around that time for a brand muffin recipe of mine that was not very well photographed at the time, which was stuff you could get away with on a blog in 2009.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And there were a lot of references to, I guess, a Rachael Ray meatloaf muffin.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And maybe some people had mistaken what it was based on the photo.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So yeah, I think based on those comments, I read that yes, meatloaf muffins were a thing.
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<v SPEAKER_4>There's this great Weird History Food channel on YouTube and they had a great episode on meatloaf.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So I want to give credit to that because that was the jumping off point.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, what was the weirdest, most interesting bit of meatloaf history?
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<v SPEAKER_4>The weirdest meatloaves are definitely coming out of either Roman era, where they're also doing stuffed mice dishes or the horrific things Americans did to food in the 50s and 60s, I'd say.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Maybe the 70s.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, I had a cookbook called, it's called 365 Days of Hamburger.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yes, I read about that book.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Oh yeah, I had this book at home.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I should have dug it out.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But yeah, that one has quite a bunch of meatloaf recipes in there, including one I remember.
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<v SPEAKER_2>There was one that included bananas.
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<v SPEAKER_2>There's like a layer of bananas at the top or there's some kind of chopped bananas inside it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I saw a version that was like little scoops like meatloaf baked into peach halves.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Yum.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I saw one that was entirely baked around a head of cauliflower.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So like you slice into it and you get that cauliflower.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I don't know about you Kenji and your family, but we have a don't yuck my yum rule at the table.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So I'm going to try to hold on to that for this podcast.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But I just want you to know that right now it's a struggle.
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<v SPEAKER_2>So it's a whole head of cauliflower wrapped in ground meat.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's like a Scotch egg, but with a whole head of cauliflower instead of a boiled egg.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's an even less ass for a Scotch egg.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I was going to say that apparently the very first idea of like mixing meat with tenderizing fillings traces back to the fourth or fifth century AD.
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<v SPEAKER_4>There's this Roman cookbook.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I'm going to say it wrong.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Apicus, A-P-I-C-I-C-I-C.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Apicius.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Apicius.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Apicius, my goodness, dad.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You can read those words.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Apicius, and there's a recipe for patties made of chopped meat, bread and wine.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But I think it doesn't necessarily show up in the US till later.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I would say there's Scrapple, which is a very early iteration of it, but it's quite different, but what it has in common is that it's got this ground meat and a binder.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm pretty sure that in the US at least, Meat Loaf comes mainly from the Pennsylvania Dutch.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It was like a later take on hamburger steaks.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I think that makes sense.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's like German influence.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, it was grapple, I think.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's like an early Meat Loaf.
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<v SPEAKER_4>There were certain things that happened over the years.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I loved this little tidbit.
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<v SPEAKER_4>This guy, Karl Dreis, who also invented the bicycle, invented the meat grinder in 1840s.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And there are other meat grinding apparatus that existed in the world, but he had the one that home cooks could use.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It was portable and small and easy to get.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So now you don't have to go to a butcher to pulverize meat, and you have people at home doing terrific or horrific things with ground meat, whenever they want.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I'm running out of you, like.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And so in the 1870s, you're the first meat loaves start to pop up all over the country.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But back then it was considered breakfast or a snack.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, I had yours cold for breakfast this morning.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so you're totally down with this.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And then of course you have like industrial farming, and so you have a lot more meat in this 20th century, and then you've got the Great Depression in 1929, where all these people had work, and you need to stretch meat.
00:10:26.529 --> 00:10:28.029
<v SPEAKER_4>You need to stretch what small is.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And that's, I mean, Meat Loaf was just made for this moment.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Like it was just made.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You can bulk it up with grains and breads and oats, and like whatever you want to stretch it with.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Canned soup to make your Meat Loaf serve your family for very little money.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And Meat Loaf is one of the situations where you say you're like bulking it up, you're stretching the meat up, but really it's one of these foods where the solution for the price issue, by bulking it up like this, we actually made the food into something better anyway.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You don't want a Meat Loaf that's made all out of meat because it ends up like a giant hamburger patty, right?
00:11:02.269 --> 00:11:04.369
<v SPEAKER_2>Like it ends up drier, it ends up tougher.
00:11:04.669 --> 00:11:05.989
<v SPEAKER_2>You can't get the seasonings in there.
00:11:06.009 --> 00:11:20.929
<v SPEAKER_2>So like Meat Loaf, a lot of the reason why we add things like breadcrumbs and eggs and dairy and chopped vegetables is to prevent the meat from binding to itself and getting that sort of like springier sausage-like texture, like tougher texture.
00:11:20.949 --> 00:11:22.469
<v SPEAKER_2>Like Meat Loaf should be super tender, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>But it does, I mean it can, but you know something like oats or cornmeal or something like this could definitely like make it drier too.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So like there's a little bit of like back and forth you need to play with because some of these, I feel like Meat Loaf has a reputation like when it's bad at being dry.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I think that's like due to like the kind of dry stuff used to bulk it up.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I also found it really funny to read like food brands unsurprisingly wanted a piece of this Meat Loaf love.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And so you started having recipes showing up in packaging labels, like your canister of oats had a Meat Loaf recipe on it, which probably explains why we often think of Meat Loaf having oats and it's not uncommon.
00:11:56.589 --> 00:12:11.169
<v SPEAKER_4>You have the canned soup, they wanted a piece of the Meat Loaf, but it was probably unsurprisingly Heinz ketchup that won the Meat Loaf label wars by convincing people that it was the perfect glaze, sweet sour glaze for your Meat Loaf.
00:12:11.189 --> 00:12:12.469
<v SPEAKER_4>And that stays till today.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Talk to me about your Meat Loaf.
00:12:14.089 --> 00:12:15.809
<v SPEAKER_2>So I made your Meat Loaf yesterday.
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<v SPEAKER_2>This is your Meat Loaf for skeptics, which is in your new book, Smitten Kitchen Keepers.
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<v SPEAKER_2>So can you tell me about that recipe?
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<v SPEAKER_4>So I had mentioned that I was just a little skeptical about Meat Loaf mostly because I didn't grow up with it.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And unlike other things that I've been curious about that I didn't grow up with, I wasn't very curious about it.
00:12:33.789 --> 00:12:39.749
<v SPEAKER_4>But I had done that Meat Loaf's recipe, which is very much a classic Meat Loaf, but just in rounds in my first book.
00:12:39.809 --> 00:12:43.269
<v SPEAKER_4>And with this, I had an assistant who was really nudging me.
00:12:43.469 --> 00:12:45.489
<v SPEAKER_4>She's like, you need to do a Turkey Meat Loaf recipe.
00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:46.449
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, but why?
00:12:46.849 --> 00:12:47.789
<v SPEAKER_4>This is my bias.
00:12:47.809 --> 00:12:48.689
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm making fun of myself.
00:12:48.709 --> 00:12:50.929
<v SPEAKER_4>Like I didn't think people ate ground turkey by choice.
00:12:50.949 --> 00:12:54.269
<v SPEAKER_4>They ate it because it was like the better option for the earth and there's many good reasons to eat it.
00:12:54.289 --> 00:12:56.709
<v SPEAKER_4>But I didn't think people were like, yay Turkey Meat Loaf.
00:12:56.729 --> 00:13:03.449
<v SPEAKER_4>You take, I think a kind of less popular ground meat and then you take a less popular thing like meatloaf and you put it together.
00:13:03.449 --> 00:13:05.829
<v SPEAKER_4>And I was struggling, but it was the pandemic.
00:13:05.849 --> 00:13:08.389
<v SPEAKER_4>We were home cooking 4,700 meals a week.
00:13:08.709 --> 00:13:11.609
<v SPEAKER_4>And I started playing around with it.
00:13:11.629 --> 00:13:13.249
<v SPEAKER_4>And I really liked the way it came out.
00:13:13.329 --> 00:13:15.669
<v SPEAKER_4>And that's really directly led to the one in the book.
00:13:15.709 --> 00:13:20.149
<v SPEAKER_4>And I basically use what I consider a tender meatball mix.
00:13:20.429 --> 00:13:21.209
<v SPEAKER_4>Pretty simple.
00:13:21.229 --> 00:13:23.349
<v SPEAKER_4>I always start by pulverizing the vegetables.
00:13:23.369 --> 00:13:25.329
<v SPEAKER_4>I like to do it in the food processor, just like you.
00:13:25.349 --> 00:13:28.629
<v SPEAKER_4>Because I don't like those chunks of vegetables in mine.
00:13:28.649 --> 00:13:29.569
<v SPEAKER_4>That's just my thing.
00:13:29.929 --> 00:13:32.949
<v SPEAKER_4>You do saute it, but after that it's a pretty straightforward meatball.
00:13:32.969 --> 00:13:39.169
<v SPEAKER_4>I bake it free form because I want to get the most, I don't know, caramelization on it, even if you don't get the nice square shape.
00:13:39.189 --> 00:13:41.569
<v SPEAKER_4>And then I do a fake barbecue sauce glaze.
00:13:41.989 --> 00:13:46.309
<v SPEAKER_2>Your glaze is ketchup, Worcestershire sauce, molasses and hot sauce.
00:13:47.009 --> 00:13:47.609
<v SPEAKER_4>Exactly.
00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:49.449
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, and cider vinegar, cider vinegar.
00:13:49.569 --> 00:13:54.049
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, so it gives you like, it's like the base of the barbecue flavor minus the smoke or like meat drippings.
00:13:54.549 --> 00:13:57.309
<v SPEAKER_2>So you call for panko and you call for chicken broth.
00:13:57.549 --> 00:13:59.929
<v SPEAKER_2>No dairy though, which is different from mine.
00:14:00.269 --> 00:14:04.249
<v SPEAKER_2>The one thing you do in yours, which is saute the vegetables separately.
00:14:04.269 --> 00:14:06.789
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's something that like always bugs me with Meat Loaf.
00:14:07.189 --> 00:14:12.809
<v SPEAKER_2>The fact that, like when I was working on the recipe for my book, I tested a lot with, you can just fold raw vegetables in here.
00:14:12.829 --> 00:14:14.429
<v SPEAKER_2>Of course you can just fold raw vegetables in here.
00:14:14.449 --> 00:14:22.809
<v SPEAKER_2>But then if you try and fold raw vegetables into Meat Loaf, they just don't cook through because the meat is done at 165, whereas the vegetables need to cook to 190 to soften.
00:14:22.829 --> 00:14:29.709
<v SPEAKER_2>And so when you just fold raw vegetables and you end up with that kind of steamed onion flavor and like really chunky, crunchy bits.
00:14:29.729 --> 00:14:30.569
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it just doesn't work.
00:14:30.929 --> 00:14:36.309
<v SPEAKER_2>The one frustrating point to me is like Meat Loaf feels like it's this such an easy thing where you just mix everything together and bake it.
00:14:36.609 --> 00:14:41.229
<v SPEAKER_2>But you do, doing that sauteing step at the beginning actually is quite important.
00:14:41.489 --> 00:14:47.049
<v SPEAKER_2>But anyhow, yeah, yours you get most of your moisture from the breadcrumbs and the chicken broth.
00:14:47.389 --> 00:14:50.829
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it has a really nice, clean meat flavor.
00:14:51.189 --> 00:14:59.709
<v SPEAKER_2>The one, the thing I did was I, for the glaze instead of adding a teaspoon of my favorite hot sauce, I added more like a tablespoon of my favorite hot sauce.
00:14:59.729 --> 00:15:01.029
<v SPEAKER_2>And my favorite hot sauce is pretty hot.
00:15:01.369 --> 00:15:06.649
<v SPEAKER_2>And so I, well, I have a lot of favorite hot sauces, but the one I used yesterday is called Pero Afortunado.
00:15:06.769 --> 00:15:09.189
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a hot sauce from Lucky Dog, who are based out of the Bay area.
00:15:09.429 --> 00:15:20.109
<v SPEAKER_2>But I put it on and then I glazed the Meat Loaf and then I sliced it, and then my kids both cut off the, most of the, like they're usually fine with spicy things, but for some reason in the context of Meat Loaf, they're like, we don't want this.
00:15:20.129 --> 00:15:24.629
<v SPEAKER_2>And they both gave the Meat Loaf high ratings, but both of them cut off the glaze.
00:15:26.049 --> 00:15:27.649
<v SPEAKER_4>But you hadn't fully followed the recipe.
00:15:28.109 --> 00:15:29.849
<v SPEAKER_2>I had not fully followed the recipe, no.
00:15:29.869 --> 00:15:30.789
<v SPEAKER_4>How dare you?
00:15:32.769 --> 00:15:35.789
<v SPEAKER_2>I tried to follow, I even pulled out like a measuring cup, which I usually don't.
00:15:36.109 --> 00:15:40.709
<v SPEAKER_2>I pulled out measuring cups and measuring spoons specifically for your recipe, which I generally don't.
00:15:41.229 --> 00:15:50.709
<v SPEAKER_4>I do use measuring cups and spoons, but that's because once I get it exactly right, I want it to be exactly that good next time, or it's gonna bother me, like why was it different?
00:15:50.729 --> 00:15:53.669
<v SPEAKER_4>But I have issues, so that's, you're the normal cook here.
00:15:54.009 --> 00:16:02.809
<v SPEAKER_2>One thing I noted was in your turkey meatloaf recipe, it's probably like 50% turkey and 50% like vegetables and breadcrumbs and stuff.
00:16:03.449 --> 00:16:14.309
<v SPEAKER_2>Would you have done something different if you were using, like with your recipe, if you were using ground beef or another kind of ground meat mixture, would you have done something different as far as your ratios or anything like that go?
00:16:14.489 --> 00:16:23.429
<v SPEAKER_4>You know, in my first Meat Loaf's recipe, which I said is, that was my first book, a lot of the stuff that went into the turkey meatloaf was stuff I had figured out working on the first one.
00:16:23.449 --> 00:16:25.429
<v SPEAKER_4>And that one starts with two pounds of ground beef.
00:16:25.449 --> 00:16:27.209
<v SPEAKER_4>So it's very classic.
00:16:27.229 --> 00:16:30.809
<v SPEAKER_4>And I also do use the minced vegetables and I saute them again.
00:16:30.829 --> 00:16:35.189
<v SPEAKER_4>And I found the same thing, which is just that it just tasted like vegetable mulch in it.
00:16:35.409 --> 00:16:41.069
<v SPEAKER_4>And you really need to saute things in oil or fat so they can get sweet and caramelized tasting.
00:16:41.089 --> 00:16:44.109
<v SPEAKER_4>Not truly dark, but it's like when you're doing a vegetable soup.
00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:50.889
<v SPEAKER_4>If you don't want it to taste like boiled vegetables, you have to saute them first to get out the sweetness and draw out that flavor.
00:16:51.149 --> 00:16:55.209
<v SPEAKER_4>I just mean for a straight up vegetable minestrone if you just boil the vegetables.
00:16:55.229 --> 00:16:56.389
<v SPEAKER_4>It tastes like boiled vegetables.
00:16:56.409 --> 00:16:58.049
<v SPEAKER_4>So I think it was similar there.
00:16:58.369 --> 00:17:05.209
<v SPEAKER_4>One thing I did, I do remember that I had switched over the years from calling for torn up bread to calling for panko breadcrumbs.
00:17:05.229 --> 00:17:10.729
<v SPEAKER_4>And mostly because I just find that more and more people don't really have bread around or they don't have sliced bread.
00:17:10.749 --> 00:17:12.909
<v SPEAKER_4>And everybody was asking me how much breadcrumbs to use.
00:17:12.929 --> 00:17:19.629
<v SPEAKER_4>And so I'd rather point them to the very neutral shredded breadcrumbs of panko, which are pretty accessible these days.
00:17:20.089 --> 00:17:35.409
<v SPEAKER_2>To me, this points to one of the issues I come up with as a recipe developer a lot, which is that a lot of these dishes, so especially something like meatloaf, the point of the dish is that it's an economical thing, and the bread that you're using for it will be whatever bread you have leftover at home.
00:17:36.369 --> 00:17:44.329
<v SPEAKER_2>If you have a couple slices of leftover bread, you should be using that instead of going out and buying a container of panko breadcrumbs just to make this specific recipe, right?
00:17:44.349 --> 00:17:45.409
<v SPEAKER_4>I completely agree.
00:17:45.449 --> 00:17:48.789
<v SPEAKER_2>So you should be working with what you have at home, but that's not what's always gonna happen.
00:17:48.809 --> 00:18:06.949
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you have to try and figure out these ways to balance, like, okay, how can I impress on people like, okay, you should make this the way it's written, but it's also kind of ridiculous to go and buy this one specific brand of breadcrumbs just to make this one specific meatloaf recipe when really meatloaf is a dish that should be using up the scraps in your kitchen.
00:18:06.969 --> 00:18:09.509
<v SPEAKER_2>It should be using up the half carrot that you have in your fridge.
00:18:09.529 --> 00:18:11.269
<v SPEAKER_2>And if you don't have half a carrot, then so what?
00:18:11.669 --> 00:18:12.789
<v SPEAKER_4>I completely agree with you.
00:18:12.809 --> 00:18:22.129
<v SPEAKER_4>And I struggle with that too, where I don't want to give people products that they have to buy when you might just have a stale hamburger or hot dog roll, which you could also tear up.
00:18:22.149 --> 00:18:29.129
<v SPEAKER_4>I've told people to do that, tear up their breadcrumbs or every time you have an old baguette before it turns into concrete, shred it up, maybe freeze it.
00:18:29.489 --> 00:18:31.409
<v SPEAKER_4>And then you've got breadcrumbs whenever you need it.
00:18:31.969 --> 00:18:34.869
<v SPEAKER_2>I found this cool method that, where did I see it?
00:18:34.889 --> 00:18:36.629
<v SPEAKER_2>It maybe was David Leibovitz.
00:18:36.709 --> 00:18:49.949
<v SPEAKER_2>I think I saw Jim Leahy do this, where when you have older stale bread, the best way to make breadcrumbs, you take it, you take your bread, you put it in a bowl, cover it with water until it's like completely soaked, okay?
00:18:50.169 --> 00:18:58.889
<v SPEAKER_2>And then you drain it out and you squeeze out the bread as much as you can and then just kind of shred it up while it's still kind of wet and put it on a sheet tray and then put it in a low oven and dry it out.
00:18:59.229 --> 00:19:01.829
<v SPEAKER_2>So get it wet for soaking wet first and then dry it out.
00:19:02.469 --> 00:19:10.869
<v SPEAKER_2>And it ends up making breadcrumbs that are sort of more uniform in size and easier to break down into sort of nicer, I don't know, flaky pieces.
00:19:11.209 --> 00:19:14.409
<v SPEAKER_2>It works out a lot better than just trying to grind up the bread.
00:19:14.689 --> 00:19:19.349
<v SPEAKER_2>It's what I've ended up doing with like most of my bread when it starts to get stale, I just soak it in water and then I just leave it to dry.
00:19:19.369 --> 00:19:21.449
<v SPEAKER_2>And it eventually works its way into breadcrumbs.
00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:24.709
<v SPEAKER_4>That's a great tip and I'm 100% gonna do this.
00:19:24.729 --> 00:19:25.109
<v SPEAKER_4>I love it.
00:19:25.129 --> 00:19:31.409
<v SPEAKER_4>I've seen people talking about like reviving stale bread with water, but I haven't seen it just to make breadcrumbs because that's what I really need.
00:19:31.529 --> 00:19:34.629
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, breadcrumbs is when it's too far gone to revive with water.
00:19:34.989 --> 00:19:37.569
<v SPEAKER_4>Kenji, I made your Meat Loaf last night for dinner.
00:19:37.589 --> 00:19:39.469
<v SPEAKER_4>And I wanna talk about that when we get back.
00:19:39.569 --> 00:19:40.949
<v SPEAKER_2>You were able to get through it in one day.
00:19:40.969 --> 00:19:42.269
<v SPEAKER_4>We're gonna talk about that.
00:19:43.849 --> 00:19:45.109
<v SPEAKER_4>We have a lot to talk about.
00:19:52.488 --> 00:19:54.828
<v SPEAKER_5>Wondering where to find your next podcast to binge?
00:19:55.108 --> 00:20:01.788
<v SPEAKER_5>At Radiotopia from PRX, you'll find bold authenticity, boundless creativity, and emotional storytelling.
00:20:01.848 --> 00:20:04.188
<v SPEAKER_5>You won't find anywhere else in podcasting.
00:20:04.428 --> 00:20:09.068
<v SPEAKER_5>Discover award-winning audio with vision at radiotopia.fm.
00:20:11.788 --> 00:20:14.708
<v SPEAKER_2>All right, welcome back to The Recipe with Deb and Kenji.
00:20:15.288 --> 00:20:23.168
<v SPEAKER_4>So I made your Meat Loaf last night, and it took me three and a half hours.
00:20:23.628 --> 00:20:27.168
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm just very slow when I follow a recipe for the first time.
00:20:27.228 --> 00:20:28.748
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm just very slow.
00:20:29.188 --> 00:20:40.248
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm sure if I made it again tonight, it would not take me three and a half hours, but just because I definitely did not start with three and a half hours before dinner, I would say I was a little crabby by the time I was done.
00:20:40.408 --> 00:20:47.048
<v SPEAKER_4>Just a little grumpy, dinner was really late, but Meat Loaf was perfect for dinner because we'd finally gotten some snow in New York the night before and we were really excited.
00:20:47.068 --> 00:20:48.568
<v SPEAKER_4>It was like the perfect cozy thing.
00:20:48.588 --> 00:20:49.628
<v SPEAKER_4>It smelled amazing.
00:20:50.088 --> 00:21:00.048
<v SPEAKER_4>So I went to make the glaze and I realized, and this is just, I don't know about you, but there are ingredients that I never run out of and I never ever run out of apple cider vinegar and I was out of apple cider vinegar, like thatched.
00:21:00.068 --> 00:21:01.248
<v SPEAKER_4>It was completely gone.
00:21:01.668 --> 00:21:06.828
<v SPEAKER_4>I sent my very grumpy teenager to the store, which he did ultimately go.
00:21:06.848 --> 00:21:11.308
<v SPEAKER_4>There was a lot of negotiating and some very, listen, he's a teenager.
00:21:11.328 --> 00:21:15.108
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, would you be happy if you were just cozied up after a long day and you-
00:21:15.128 --> 00:21:19.268
<v SPEAKER_2>I would never send someone in my family to the store to get a single ingredient for one of my recipes.
00:21:19.948 --> 00:21:29.188
<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so I should clarify that we live in a very busy neighborhood in New York and there's actually a store two blocks out and there's a store a single block away that has everything.
00:21:29.348 --> 00:21:36.588
<v SPEAKER_4>And so we've just decided at some point when my son was able to like commute to high school that he could also go to the corner if we ran out of bananas.
00:21:36.988 --> 00:21:43.888
<v SPEAKER_4>Anyway, so my poor son had to go out for the apple cider vinegar so I can make the glaze correctly, and I have to say the glaze was my kid's.
00:21:43.908 --> 00:21:46.068
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, they liked the whole thing, but they loved the glaze.
00:21:46.088 --> 00:21:46.588
<v SPEAKER_4>They loved it.
00:21:46.608 --> 00:21:47.908
<v SPEAKER_4>They were pouring on the extra.
00:21:47.928 --> 00:21:49.068
<v SPEAKER_4>They loved how much it had.
00:21:49.088 --> 00:21:49.968
<v SPEAKER_4>And it was a huge hit.
00:21:49.988 --> 00:21:53.108
<v SPEAKER_4>Like I said, it took me forever, but the Meat Loaf was fantastic.
00:21:53.128 --> 00:21:54.648
<v SPEAKER_4>It was perfectly seasoned.
00:21:54.728 --> 00:21:56.628
<v SPEAKER_4>It was really delicious.
00:21:56.648 --> 00:22:01.528
<v SPEAKER_4>And I had to like hold us back from having seconds because I wanted to have enough leftovers for dinner tonight.
00:22:01.808 --> 00:22:05.128
<v SPEAKER_4>And even my daughter who's like incredibly picky was super into it.
00:22:05.268 --> 00:22:07.308
<v SPEAKER_4>So that is two for two, Kenji.
00:22:07.328 --> 00:22:09.248
<v SPEAKER_4>I think my kids like your cooking more than me.
00:22:09.448 --> 00:22:12.928
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, the thing about my Meat Loaf is, so this is another one of those recipes.
00:22:12.948 --> 00:22:15.488
<v SPEAKER_2>I haven't made it since I wrote the book because it's so many recipes.
00:22:15.508 --> 00:22:16.288
<v SPEAKER_4>I totally know that feeling.
00:22:16.808 --> 00:22:17.748
<v SPEAKER_2>So many ingredients in there.
00:22:17.768 --> 00:22:20.448
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's 20 ingredients before you even get to the glaze.
00:22:20.988 --> 00:22:21.548
<v SPEAKER_4>No, I know.
00:22:21.568 --> 00:22:22.328
<v SPEAKER_2>Which is excessive.
00:22:22.428 --> 00:22:24.788
<v SPEAKER_4>Is this like the classic that we're gonna be saying every week?
00:22:24.808 --> 00:22:28.268
<v SPEAKER_4>This is like the stuff you made before you had kids versus the stuff you make after you have kids?
00:22:28.288 --> 00:22:29.148
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not even that.
00:22:29.188 --> 00:22:35.728
<v SPEAKER_2>It's more that I feel like when I wrote this Meat Loaf recipe, I was like, okay, I'm writing this chapter of my book that's about ground meat.
00:22:35.748 --> 00:22:43.708
<v SPEAKER_2>And this is going to be the representative recipe of how tender ground meat mixtures work, how meatloaves and meatballs and stuff work.
00:22:43.728 --> 00:22:49.948
<v SPEAKER_2>And I want to be able to talk about every ingredient that you could potentially put into a Meat Loaf that's going to affect its texture in the end.
00:22:49.968 --> 00:22:57.328
<v SPEAKER_2>So that's why it's obviously got the breadcrumbs, the classic ingredients, the breadcrumbs and the eggs, both of which sort of lighten and leaven a Meat Loaf.
00:22:57.348 --> 00:22:59.288
<v SPEAKER_2>But I think mine also has gelatin in it.
00:22:59.368 --> 00:23:00.808
<v SPEAKER_4>Two gelatin packets.
00:23:00.828 --> 00:23:03.628
<v SPEAKER_4>I found some gelatin in my cabinet that expired.
00:23:03.648 --> 00:23:10.648
<v SPEAKER_4>And you always think you're not gonna be that person, but it turns out when you just don't move, you have stuff that's really, it expired in 2016.
00:23:10.668 --> 00:23:13.668
<v SPEAKER_4>So earlier in the day had gone back to the store for that.
00:23:13.948 --> 00:23:15.388
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, it would probably have been fine.
00:23:15.408 --> 00:23:22.088
<v SPEAKER_4>I think I probably would have, if there were two left in the box, but there was only one left in the box, so I needed to get a second one anyway.
00:23:22.108 --> 00:23:26.788
<v SPEAKER_4>I know, I didn't really think it would expire anyway, as long as it hadn't solidified.
00:23:26.808 --> 00:23:29.868
<v SPEAKER_2>It's made from a pig that expired in 2014.
00:23:31.208 --> 00:23:33.028
<v SPEAKER_4>I made it from an expired pig.
00:23:34.288 --> 00:23:35.768
<v SPEAKER_4>That would bring it back to life.
00:23:38.008 --> 00:23:38.708
<v SPEAKER_4>So there was that.
00:23:38.728 --> 00:23:42.688
<v SPEAKER_4>There was three anchovies in it, which is another non-traditional ingredient.
00:23:43.248 --> 00:23:45.408
<v SPEAKER_4>Two teaspoons of soy sauce, if I remember.
00:23:45.428 --> 00:23:49.228
<v SPEAKER_4>Now it had half a teaspoon of marmite in it, and that was, for me, where I drew the line.
00:23:49.248 --> 00:23:50.328
<v SPEAKER_4>I did not want to buy marmite.
00:23:50.348 --> 00:23:56.548
<v SPEAKER_4>I did not want to own marmite when I did not want to own marmite, so I decided for half a teaspoon.
00:23:56.568 --> 00:24:01.848
<v SPEAKER_4>And I did Google things you could put in instead of marmite, like nutritional yeast, but I didn't have that either.
00:24:02.548 --> 00:24:10.168
<v SPEAKER_2>So to be clear, marmite is a brown spread from England that's made from, it's a yeast extract.
00:24:10.428 --> 00:24:11.648
<v SPEAKER_4>So it's fermented, right?
00:24:11.768 --> 00:24:28.348
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I think it's a by-product of Brewer's yeast, and it's high in amino acids and very sort of umami and salty tasting, and people spread it on their toast, but I often call for it as a sort of little flavoring and coloring thing that you stick into soups and stews.
00:24:29.048 --> 00:24:32.948
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, at least I used to when I was in my sort of umami bomb phase.
00:24:33.168 --> 00:24:36.848
<v SPEAKER_4>I was thinking about having half a teaspoon of beef bouillon base.
00:24:36.868 --> 00:24:38.408
<v SPEAKER_4>I use those back in bouillon jars.
00:24:38.428 --> 00:24:41.028
<v SPEAKER_4>I was thinking about it, but I didn't see anyone mention it.
00:24:41.348 --> 00:24:45.688
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that would absolutely work, because beef bouillon is largely made from yeast extract as well.
00:24:46.108 --> 00:24:51.248
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, it seems similar, and especially the ones that are concentrated, so it's already a paste almost.
00:24:51.368 --> 00:24:56.428
<v SPEAKER_4>All right, well, next time I'll do that, but I'd already used a little bouillon for the broth, the half cup of broth.
00:24:56.528 --> 00:25:00.068
<v SPEAKER_4>So it's got the marmite, the anchovy fillets, the soy sauce.
00:25:00.728 --> 00:25:03.088
<v SPEAKER_4>After that, I think it's fairly traditional.
00:25:03.108 --> 00:25:07.388
<v SPEAKER_4>The only thing that surprised me, and this is just, again, did not grow up eating it.
00:25:07.428 --> 00:25:11.068
<v SPEAKER_4>I did not know that meatloaf sometimes had cheese in it.
00:25:11.068 --> 00:25:26.928
<v SPEAKER_4>Now, I don't know if this is like vestigial kosher, even though I did not grow up kosher, but I always joke about that when I'm like separately, like it just, it's not like my natural instinct to put cheese inside meat, but then I asked friends about it, and they were 50-50, 50-50 were like really excited about the idea of cheese.
00:25:26.948 --> 00:25:30.228
<v SPEAKER_4>They loved the idea of cheese and meatloaf, so it really was just me who wasn't used to it.
00:25:30.848 --> 00:25:32.368
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know where I saw cheese first.
00:25:32.388 --> 00:25:36.328
<v SPEAKER_2>I think I probably saw that like when I was working at Cooks Illustrated, cheese and meatloaf.
00:25:36.788 --> 00:25:40.988
<v SPEAKER_2>And I don't know if that was like a thing that they had in one of the recipes or just something we were testing at the time.
00:25:41.788 --> 00:25:46.588
<v SPEAKER_4>It didn't taste like cheese, like it didn't give any cheese flavor, but there was just a, there was a really good flavor.
00:25:47.208 --> 00:25:49.228
<v SPEAKER_2>Everything's like binds more moisture into it.
00:25:49.268 --> 00:25:53.588
<v SPEAKER_2>Like that's what the breadcrumbs and the gelatin and any moisture that comes out of the meat gets stuck in there.
00:25:53.608 --> 00:25:55.588
<v SPEAKER_2>Like it's trapped in like a little, a matrix.
00:25:55.728 --> 00:25:57.108
<v SPEAKER_4>In the Meat Loaf matrix.
00:25:57.888 --> 00:25:59.168
<v SPEAKER_4>This is definitely a song.
00:26:00.568 --> 00:26:01.648
<v SPEAKER_4>It has to be one.
00:26:02.188 --> 00:26:12.688
<v SPEAKER_4>But the only other thing I did, probably not exactly to the letter of the recipe, was that I used a pork beef meatloaf mix, and I don't know what percentage it was of which, but otherwise I would have just bought.
00:26:12.708 --> 00:26:13.648
<v SPEAKER_2>What does mine call for?
00:26:13.668 --> 00:26:18.788
<v SPEAKER_4>It calls for one and a quarter pounds of beef and three quarters of a pound of pork.
00:26:19.208 --> 00:26:21.988
<v SPEAKER_4>And I would have otherwise just bought one pound of each, because that's how they're sold.
00:26:22.008 --> 00:26:23.028
<v SPEAKER_4>But there was a meatloaf mix.
00:26:23.048 --> 00:26:24.848
<v SPEAKER_4>It was probably more beef than pork anyway.
00:26:25.208 --> 00:26:31.348
<v SPEAKER_4>It seemed, it looked to me more like beef, but the total flavor and everything was fantastic.
00:26:31.368 --> 00:26:32.628
<v SPEAKER_4>It was really good.
00:26:32.648 --> 00:26:35.588
<v SPEAKER_4>I liked the way we were able to use the loaf shape.
00:26:35.808 --> 00:26:40.168
<v SPEAKER_4>So for your meatloaf, we pack it into a loaf pan, chill it for a bit.
00:26:40.468 --> 00:26:43.708
<v SPEAKER_4>I actually put it outside on the terrace, like stuck it in the snow.
00:26:43.728 --> 00:26:46.248
<v SPEAKER_4>I've got a nice Instagram of that for ya.
00:26:47.288 --> 00:26:49.588
<v SPEAKER_4>Because my fridge is bursting at the seams right now.
00:26:49.808 --> 00:26:52.768
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, for my mom's house, it was the hallway in her apartment building.
00:26:53.088 --> 00:26:53.968
<v SPEAKER_4>Was it really cold?
00:26:54.268 --> 00:26:54.948
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh yeah, yeah.
00:26:55.148 --> 00:26:59.748
<v SPEAKER_2>The hallway has windows, and so the hallway is like, it's as cold as it is outside.
00:26:59.848 --> 00:27:07.888
<v SPEAKER_4>We're lucky to have a little terrace outside, which we don't use nearly as much as I always thought we would, but it's fantastic for storing wine, cheese, or whatever.
00:27:08.008 --> 00:27:09.828
<v SPEAKER_4>I can't fit in the fridge at a really cold night.
00:27:10.048 --> 00:27:12.088
<v SPEAKER_4>So the meatloaf went out there while I warmed the oven.
00:27:12.108 --> 00:27:14.648
<v SPEAKER_4>I put it in so that I did, the foil thing was very clever.
00:27:14.668 --> 00:27:20.268
<v SPEAKER_4>So you cover it with foil and then you upend it onto the foil and it becomes a little bit like of a holder for it.
00:27:20.468 --> 00:27:22.048
<v SPEAKER_2>I wouldn't call it totally clever.
00:27:22.068 --> 00:27:29.348
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, so the issue, what you're talking about here is like, so meatloafs, you can either bake them in a loaf pan or you can bake them free form on the tray.
00:27:29.908 --> 00:27:36.008
<v SPEAKER_2>Or you can do it what I did, which is start them in a loaf pan and then like upend them and turn them out onto the tray.
00:27:36.028 --> 00:27:40.348
<v SPEAKER_2>The main reason I did that is because my meatloaf has like a ton of extra liquid in it.
00:27:40.368 --> 00:27:47.048
<v SPEAKER_2>Like it's a lot sort of moisture, it's more like a meat batter that you start with as opposed to as a dough, as a meat dough.
00:27:47.728 --> 00:27:48.428
<v SPEAKER_4>Meat batter.
00:27:48.488 --> 00:27:51.808
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it's hard to make it into a loaf shape like free form.
00:27:51.828 --> 00:27:58.368
<v SPEAKER_2>And so I started in a pan to get it to set its shape and then finish it on the tray so that you can glaze the outside.
00:27:58.388 --> 00:28:03.228
<v SPEAKER_4>But I thought it was nice that we got the best of both worlds because you get to have the shape more.
00:28:03.248 --> 00:28:08.548
<v SPEAKER_4>You don't have to choose, but you don't get, you're not limited to the shape where you don't really get any edges to it.
00:28:08.548 --> 00:28:10.708
<v SPEAKER_4>So it does give it a chance to bake open.
00:28:11.028 --> 00:28:16.728
<v SPEAKER_4>There was definitely a lot of juices that came out and I discovered I have a turkey baster and I just used that to remove them from the pan.
00:28:17.308 --> 00:28:18.548
<v SPEAKER_4>But it was delicious though.
00:28:18.568 --> 00:28:27.008
<v SPEAKER_4>I didn't get any color on it when I did the glaze like three times and put it back in the oven each time, but it might've just been, I don't know.
00:28:27.188 --> 00:28:30.808
<v SPEAKER_4>I have a new oven, so I don't know if it's working exactly as it's supposed to.
00:28:30.908 --> 00:28:36.668
<v SPEAKER_4>When I took it out at the end of the cooking time it was a few degrees over, maybe almost 10 degrees over from what I wanted it to be.
00:28:36.688 --> 00:28:40.088
<v SPEAKER_4>And I was surprised because I feel like my oven's usually slow, but it didn't matter.
00:28:40.128 --> 00:28:40.808
<v SPEAKER_4>It was perfect.
00:28:40.828 --> 00:28:43.108
<v SPEAKER_4>It was incredibly moist, it didn't taste remotely overcooked.
00:28:43.128 --> 00:28:49.908
<v SPEAKER_4>I think the gelatin and the other ingredients really give you a buffer zone where it's forgiving of reheating.
00:28:50.248 --> 00:28:58.388
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that's one of the things about Meat Loaf is that Meat Loaf is very forgiving because of all the extra kind of binders and stuff that you stick into it.
00:28:58.408 --> 00:29:03.788
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also why Meat Loaf, I think, does relatively well chilled and does relatively well reheated as well.
00:29:03.808 --> 00:29:08.548
<v SPEAKER_2>Why it's like such a good leftovers food because, yeah, because you're binding all that moisture into it.
00:29:08.848 --> 00:29:10.928
<v SPEAKER_4>How is your leftover Turkey Meat Loaf for breakfast?
00:29:11.568 --> 00:29:12.388
<v SPEAKER_4>Was it dry?
00:29:12.408 --> 00:29:13.088
<v SPEAKER_4>Was it moist?
00:29:13.108 --> 00:29:13.688
<v SPEAKER_4>Did it hold up?
00:29:14.068 --> 00:29:14.908
<v SPEAKER_2>No, it was moist.
00:29:14.928 --> 00:29:16.948
<v SPEAKER_2>It was moist and it was moist and delicious.
00:29:18.468 --> 00:29:19.668
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, it was crazy delicious.
00:29:19.688 --> 00:29:21.988
<v SPEAKER_4>And I'm so excited that dinner is made for tonight.
00:29:22.068 --> 00:29:23.768
<v SPEAKER_4>And I know the kids are excited to eat it.
00:29:23.788 --> 00:29:25.108
<v SPEAKER_4>We had some leftover mashed potatoes.
00:29:25.288 --> 00:29:30.148
<v SPEAKER_4>So I made the brown butter mashed potatoes from my first book and I hadn't made them in years.
00:29:30.248 --> 00:29:32.268
<v SPEAKER_4>And I do highly recommend them.
00:29:32.288 --> 00:29:32.988
<v SPEAKER_4>They're really nice.
00:29:33.008 --> 00:29:38.448
<v SPEAKER_4>I just sort of feel like if you're gonna have to put all that butter in to make the mashed potatoes good, you might as well get some flavor in them.
00:29:38.448 --> 00:29:43.668
<v SPEAKER_4>And I don't usually do a ton of brown butter and savory things, but I feel like it works in the mashed potatoes.
00:29:43.688 --> 00:29:48.408
<v SPEAKER_4>I feel like it works better in desserts in general, but here it's really nice to give you that nutty complexity.
00:29:54.706 --> 00:29:57.006
<v SPEAKER_2>Let's say that you could do anything to Meat Loaf.
00:29:57.546 --> 00:29:58.406
<v SPEAKER_4>But you won't do that?
00:29:58.426 --> 00:29:59.586
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, what is it that you won't do?
00:30:00.706 --> 00:30:01.186
<v SPEAKER_4>Sorry.
00:30:01.546 --> 00:30:03.886
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I mean, I am trying to think of a way to get that into it.
00:30:03.906 --> 00:30:06.446
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, two out of three ain't bad.
00:30:06.466 --> 00:30:08.226
<v SPEAKER_2>You won't do jarred garlic to Meat Loaf?
00:30:08.866 --> 00:30:13.626
<v SPEAKER_4>We did not talk about bacon wrapping Meat Loaf, which is very common.
00:30:15.306 --> 00:30:18.266
<v SPEAKER_4>Neither of us do this kind of classic thing with a Meat Loaf.
00:30:18.306 --> 00:30:21.426
<v SPEAKER_4>How do you feel about bacon wrapping Meat Loaf?
00:30:21.886 --> 00:30:24.266
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not big on bacon wrapping in general.
00:30:24.446 --> 00:30:37.066
<v SPEAKER_2>I find that it's just not always the best use of bacon because the bacon always ends up either kind of leathery or not properly rendered, or it ends up crispy in a way that I don't really want on the outside of my, whatever it is I'm wrapping in bacon.
00:30:37.386 --> 00:30:42.566
<v SPEAKER_2>I generally feel like there's not many situations where wrapping in bacon is going to actually improve matters.
00:30:42.806 --> 00:31:03.106
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also like, I have a general sort of aversion to it because around the time probably when our respective Meat Loaf recipes came out, like in the mid 2010s or so, was also around the time when I feel like there was, you know, like epic meal time and all like the sort of food challenge dudes with big beards wrapping things in bacon.
00:31:03.126 --> 00:31:05.266
<v SPEAKER_2>There was just a ton of bacon wrapped stuff going on.
00:31:05.506 --> 00:31:09.206
<v SPEAKER_4>There were bacon scarves, there were bacon beach towels.
00:31:09.426 --> 00:31:11.886
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, but everything was wrapped in bacon at the time.
00:31:11.906 --> 00:31:15.086
<v SPEAKER_2>So I think I generally avoided wrapping things in bacon.
00:31:15.486 --> 00:31:16.126
<v SPEAKER_2>And I still do.
00:31:16.286 --> 00:31:23.906
<v SPEAKER_2>Although, you know, one of the most memorable Meat Loaves I've ever eaten was when an early restaurant job, when maybe we had just gotten a meat grinder at the restaurant or something.
00:31:23.926 --> 00:31:25.686
<v SPEAKER_2>And so everyone was excited about grinding meat.
00:31:25.706 --> 00:31:30.866
<v SPEAKER_2>And so for a family meal one day, the chef ground up a bunch of like scraps that we had trimmed off a bunch of things.
00:31:31.506 --> 00:31:37.206
<v SPEAKER_2>And then had pulled out the biggest cast iron pan in the place, which was like this 20 inch cast iron skillet.
00:31:37.506 --> 00:31:40.546
<v SPEAKER_2>And then lined the whole thing with bacon and caul fat.
00:31:41.046 --> 00:31:47.486
<v SPEAKER_2>And then filled it up with like various ground meats from all the animals, all trimmed up and seasoned.
00:31:47.506 --> 00:31:55.986
<v SPEAKER_2>And then baked this gigantic, it was the size of like a New York pizza, but like four inches thick, wrapped in caul fat and bacon, and then sliced it into wedges.
00:31:56.006 --> 00:31:56.986
<v SPEAKER_2>And that was family.
00:31:57.006 --> 00:31:58.046
<v SPEAKER_4>That sounds amazing.
00:31:58.066 --> 00:32:03.626
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, I don't think there were a lot of vegetarians listening to this episode, but there's definitely not after you mentioned caul fat.
00:32:03.626 --> 00:32:07.006
<v SPEAKER_4>But I don't know, I feel like maybe that would be nice though.
00:32:07.026 --> 00:32:13.106
<v SPEAKER_4>Like I'm definitely still in that skillet moment we've had, where I just think that most things in a skillet like come out better.
00:32:13.126 --> 00:32:16.086
<v SPEAKER_4>And I think you would end up with a little bit more texture to it.
00:32:16.466 --> 00:32:18.026
<v SPEAKER_4>It would probably bake a little faster.
00:32:18.046 --> 00:32:26.286
<v SPEAKER_2>I actually experimented with the recipe that ended up in my book, in the first book, the one where you started in a loaf pan and then dump it out onto a sheet tray.
00:32:26.826 --> 00:32:29.186
<v SPEAKER_2>I tested baking the whole thing in a skillet.
00:32:29.386 --> 00:32:32.466
<v SPEAKER_2>I did a bunch of testing with baking meatloaves and cast iron skills and stuff.
00:32:32.646 --> 00:32:40.606
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't end up with the crustiness that you want, mainly because meatloaves, like as we mentioned before, they end up just expressing too much liquid and fat.
00:32:40.626 --> 00:32:42.246
<v SPEAKER_2>There's just too much drippings that come off of them.
00:32:42.546 --> 00:32:51.186
<v SPEAKER_2>And so unless there's like a place for those drippings to drain away to, like there is on a sheet tray, they just end up like in a waiting pool of their own coagulated drippings.
00:32:51.606 --> 00:32:54.006
<v SPEAKER_2>So they don't crisp up very nicely.
00:32:54.026 --> 00:32:57.726
<v SPEAKER_4>Also, I mean, so we talk about bacon, but like should meatloaf be crispy?
00:32:57.746 --> 00:32:59.746
<v SPEAKER_4>Do we want it to have texture on the outside?
00:33:00.006 --> 00:33:02.006
<v SPEAKER_4>Or are we okay with it being a soft food?
00:33:02.466 --> 00:33:03.426
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's a soft food.
00:33:03.446 --> 00:33:12.466
<v SPEAKER_2>I think the times when meatloaf has texture is if you are at like a diner and you're getting the meatloaf the next day and it's being griddled on a flat top.
00:33:12.486 --> 00:33:13.226
<v SPEAKER_4>Which is delicious.
00:33:14.626 --> 00:33:17.926
<v SPEAKER_2>On a meatloaf sandwich, I expect a little bit of crispiness on the edges.
00:33:18.466 --> 00:33:21.206
<v SPEAKER_2>But a fresh meatloaf, probably not.
00:33:21.366 --> 00:33:22.206
<v SPEAKER_4>We agree.
00:33:23.066 --> 00:33:25.406
<v SPEAKER_4>We feel that meatloaf needs potatoes.
00:33:25.766 --> 00:33:27.086
<v SPEAKER_4>Generally mashed potatoes.
00:33:27.086 --> 00:33:30.206
<v SPEAKER_4>Although I've got my little crushed ranchie moment in my turkey meatloaf.
00:33:30.766 --> 00:33:35.766
<v SPEAKER_4>Although a reader told me that her first cookbook was a Sesame Street cookbook.
00:33:36.286 --> 00:33:42.306
<v SPEAKER_4>And her mother and her had made a meatloaf shaped like snuffleupagus that was sitting on a nest of noodles.
00:33:42.826 --> 00:33:46.306
<v SPEAKER_4>And I've been thinking since I feel like maybe it wouldn't be bad with noodles.
00:33:46.326 --> 00:33:46.946
<v SPEAKER_2>Did it have a clue?
00:33:46.966 --> 00:33:49.086
<v SPEAKER_2>Was it like snuffle, snuffleupagus?
00:33:53.146 --> 00:33:55.846
<v SPEAKER_4>It was a comment I found on the site and I loved it.
00:33:55.866 --> 00:33:56.926
<v SPEAKER_4>And she had mentioned this.
00:33:56.946 --> 00:33:59.826
<v SPEAKER_4>I was totally picturing a snuffleupagus.
00:34:00.106 --> 00:34:01.506
<v SPEAKER_4>She said on a nest of noodles.
00:34:01.526 --> 00:34:02.186
<v SPEAKER_2>I could see it.
00:34:02.366 --> 00:34:06.866
<v SPEAKER_2>We ended up actually having it with stuffing yesterday because I didn't have any.
00:34:07.626 --> 00:34:11.446
<v SPEAKER_2>Didn't have any mashed potatoes, but buttered noodles was in the running for sure.
00:34:13.526 --> 00:34:13.826
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.
00:34:14.406 --> 00:34:16.466
<v SPEAKER_4>Can you waffle meatloaf?
00:34:16.846 --> 00:34:17.446
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
00:34:18.546 --> 00:34:19.366
<v SPEAKER_4>Have you done it?
00:34:19.546 --> 00:34:21.046
<v SPEAKER_2>Especially raw meatloaf mix.
00:34:21.386 --> 00:34:24.146
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, waffling meatloaf and waffling a meatloaf sandwich.
00:34:24.166 --> 00:34:27.466
<v SPEAKER_2>This is stuff we did during our Willow waffle days at Serious Eats.
00:34:27.666 --> 00:34:29.166
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it depends on the meatloaf though.
00:34:29.186 --> 00:34:32.486
<v SPEAKER_2>I think like ones that are too meaty and crumbly don't work as well.
00:34:32.506 --> 00:34:39.226
<v SPEAKER_2>But ones that are on the more sort of breadier end of the spectrum that can compress a little bit and crisp up in the waffle iron, they work pretty well.
00:34:40.046 --> 00:34:42.406
<v SPEAKER_4>Could you taco meatloaf?
00:34:42.806 --> 00:34:43.986
<v SPEAKER_4>Do you do a meatloaf taco?
00:34:44.386 --> 00:34:45.666
<v SPEAKER_2>I would say yes, right?
00:34:46.126 --> 00:34:49.926
<v SPEAKER_4>Are we picturing a slice or like a stick of meatloaf?
00:34:49.986 --> 00:34:53.566
<v SPEAKER_4>Or are we picturing like you saute the filling like a ground beef?
00:34:53.886 --> 00:34:58.186
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm picturing like a finger, like a finger of meatloaf that's seared a little bit on each side.
00:34:58.206 --> 00:35:00.886
<v SPEAKER_2>And then I don't know, what do you do as far as toppings go?
00:35:00.906 --> 00:35:04.186
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you go with like salsa and stuff or do you do like barbecue sauce or ketchup?
00:35:04.186 --> 00:35:06.706
<v SPEAKER_4>I think it's got to be the regular sauce and the potatoes.
00:35:06.706 --> 00:35:09.406
<v SPEAKER_4>I think it's basically just meatloaf, but in a taco form.
00:35:09.886 --> 00:35:13.326
<v SPEAKER_4>Somebody's making a meatloaf burrito somewhere.
00:35:13.346 --> 00:35:16.186
<v SPEAKER_4>I think it's about portability.
00:35:16.526 --> 00:35:21.546
<v SPEAKER_4>Obviously, the elite meatloaf, handheld meatloaf is the meatloaf sandwich.
00:35:22.166 --> 00:35:22.886
<v SPEAKER_4>That's the classic.
00:35:22.906 --> 00:35:23.866
<v SPEAKER_2>The meatloaf sandwich, yes.
00:35:24.226 --> 00:35:26.486
<v SPEAKER_4>Meatloaf classic is like the number one meatloaf.
00:35:26.666 --> 00:35:29.626
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that's the one that never felt so good, never felt so right.
00:35:29.926 --> 00:35:30.786
<v SPEAKER_4>Does it leftover?
00:35:30.806 --> 00:35:33.266
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, I think we know that meatloaf leftovers are elite.
00:35:33.286 --> 00:35:34.966
<v SPEAKER_4>You had them for breakfast today.
00:35:35.346 --> 00:35:36.686
<v SPEAKER_2>They absolutely are, yes.
00:35:37.406 --> 00:35:38.186
<v SPEAKER_4>There's nothing better.
00:35:38.206 --> 00:35:42.566
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, and it's also like, it's like a top choice at a diner, I feel, because of that.
00:35:42.846 --> 00:35:44.966
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, it doesn't have to be freshly made.
00:35:44.986 --> 00:35:46.726
<v SPEAKER_4>In fact, you're hoping it'll be rewarmed.
00:35:46.726 --> 00:35:47.166
<v SPEAKER_2>Exactly.
00:35:47.186 --> 00:35:47.986
<v SPEAKER_4>That would be the best way.
00:35:48.946 --> 00:35:51.166
<v SPEAKER_4>And can you fry it in butter in a pan?
00:35:52.166 --> 00:35:56.986
<v SPEAKER_2>That would be my method of choice for reheating meatloaf, I think, frying in butter in a pan.
00:35:56.986 --> 00:36:02.266
<v SPEAKER_2>Slice it and fry it, get some surface area, get it nice and crispy, get those edges caramelized.
00:36:02.866 --> 00:36:03.646
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I want that.
00:36:03.826 --> 00:36:04.486
<v SPEAKER_4>I definitely want it.
00:36:04.706 --> 00:36:06.186
<v SPEAKER_4>I think I'm going to do that tonight with the leftovers.
00:36:06.206 --> 00:36:07.986
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm going to sear it off and get some edges to it.
00:36:08.126 --> 00:36:11.406
<v SPEAKER_4>So yes, the answer is you can fry it in butter in a pan, and you should.
00:36:11.426 --> 00:36:12.446
<v SPEAKER_4>It would be amazing.
00:36:12.466 --> 00:36:14.026
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, you fry it until the edges are...
00:36:14.126 --> 00:36:16.286
<v SPEAKER_2>Something about glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife.
00:36:18.486 --> 00:36:19.646
<v SPEAKER_2>I never understood that line.
00:36:19.666 --> 00:36:20.906
<v SPEAKER_2>Isn't that the line?
00:36:21.086 --> 00:36:22.666
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that's it.
00:36:22.766 --> 00:36:27.486
<v SPEAKER_4>It was long ago, it was far away, and it was so much better than it is today, but that couldn't be true.
00:36:28.726 --> 00:36:30.426
<v SPEAKER_4>I think we've run out of Meat Loaf jokes.
00:36:37.166 --> 00:36:40.806
<v SPEAKER_2>The Recipe is created and co-hosted by Deb Perelman and J.
00:36:40.826 --> 00:36:41.846
<v SPEAKER_2>Kenji López-Alt.
00:36:42.266 --> 00:36:47.166
<v SPEAKER_4>Our producers are Jocelyn González and Pedro Rafael Brasado of PRX Productions.
00:36:47.506 --> 00:36:49.526
<v SPEAKER_4>Edwin Ochoa is the project manager.
00:36:49.846 --> 00:36:56.086
<v SPEAKER_2>The executive producer for Radiotopia is Audrey Mardovich, and Yuri Lasordo is director of network operations.
00:36:56.626 --> 00:36:59.386
<v SPEAKER_4>For more on the show, visit therecipepodcast.com.
00:36:59.526 --> 00:37:02.886
<v SPEAKER_2>Or follow us on Instagram at Kenji and Deb and shoot us a message.
00:37:03.646 --> 00:37:05.926
<v SPEAKER_4>And we now have a phone number where you can call us.
00:37:06.066 --> 00:37:11.466
<v SPEAKER_4>It's 202-709-7607, and you can leave us a voicemail.
00:37:12.286 --> 00:37:12.986
<v SPEAKER_2>Thanks for listening.
00:37:18.566 --> 00:37:20.546
<v SPEAKER_2>Can I ask Deb a series of quickfire questions?
00:37:21.406 --> 00:37:22.386
<v SPEAKER_2>Will you love me forever?
00:37:22.406 --> 00:37:24.446
<v SPEAKER_4>Let me sleep on it.
00:37:24.466 --> 00:37:25.046
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you need me?
00:37:26.486 --> 00:37:27.426
<v SPEAKER_2>Will you never leave me?
00:37:27.446 --> 00:37:29.346
<v SPEAKER_2>Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life?
00:37:30.386 --> 00:37:33.266
<v SPEAKER_4>Only if I don't have to make a three and a half hour Meat Loaf.
00:37:33.946 --> 00:37:35.446
<v SPEAKER_4>I want somebody to make it for me, though.
00:37:35.466 --> 00:37:36.166
<v SPEAKER_4>It was amazing.
00:37:38.066 --> 00:37:45.946
<v SPEAKER_2>The Recipe with Kenji and Deb is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent creator-owned listener-supported podcasts.
00:37:46.366 --> 00:37:48.866
<v SPEAKER_2>Discover audio with vision at radiotopia.fm.
