Bonus: Live from Seattle — Deb in conversation with Kenji

Kenji has many pans going on the fire at all times, one of which was directing this year’s Community Curated Series for Seattle Arts & Lectures. In January 2024, he invited his future podcast bestie Deb onstage with him to chop it up about recipe development (and theft!), family, and greasy bags of Dick’s. 

Thanks to Alison Stagner and Woogee Bae of Seattle Arts & Lectures for their help.

• Transcript

  WEBVTT

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  <v SPEAKER_1>Hi, this is Audrey Mardovich, executive producer of Radiotopia.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>Deb and Kenji are still on a little summer break, so we wanted to bring you a special episode.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>Back in January, while we were still kind of getting ready for the launch of The Recipe, Deb and Kenji did a live event together in Seattle, Washington, which is Kenji's hometown.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>He hosted the event.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>And when we first saw some of the video clips coming out of this event, we just saw how much fun the two of them were having on stage and how much fun the audience was having.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>And I think we knew at that point that we had something special on our hands.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>So that really fueled the early part of making this podcast.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>And I want to say a special thanks to Seattle Arts & Lectures for graciously allowing us to share the audio with you all.

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  <v SPEAKER_1>So here we go.

  00:00:51.300 --> 00:00:57.920

  <v SPEAKER_1>Here is Deb and Kenji live in conversation together at Seattle Arts & Lectures.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>All right, I'm gonna start here, and then I'll move over there.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>Let me put down some stuff.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>Thank you all for coming here.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>This is a lot of people.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So, yeah, so I wanna thank Sal for inviting me to curate this series this year.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>I wanna thank Laura and the folks at Book Larder for being great friends for all the years I've been in Seattle so far, and also, of course, for helping out with the event today.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So Deb, Deb Perelman, I'm sure everybody here knows Deb Perelman, that's why you're all here.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>You know, I invited her to be one of the three guests in this series, and for the same reason I invited the other two, which is that I think she's interesting and I wanna talk to her more.

  00:01:47.343 --> 00:01:51.483

  <v SPEAKER_2>And I'm hoping that folks that I find interesting you'll also find interesting.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen.

  00:01:54.083 --> 00:01:56.363

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's one of the sort of OG food blogs.

  00:01:56.383 --> 00:01:58.343

  <v SPEAKER_2>You know, it's been around, I think, 2006.

  00:01:58.843 --> 00:02:06.563

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong, but since 2006, which is a little bit before Serious Eats started doing recipes.

  00:02:07.163 --> 00:02:14.883

  <v SPEAKER_2>But, you know, but Deb and I, we've sort of been in similar circles and followed sort of similar career paths since that era.

  00:02:14.963 --> 00:02:19.583

  <v SPEAKER_2>She, after founding Smitten Kitchen, she's now written three cookbooks.

  00:02:19.903 --> 00:02:23.123

  <v SPEAKER_2>So the Smitten Kitchen book, the Smitten Kitchen, oh, the everyday one.

  00:02:23.143 --> 00:02:28.743

  <v SPEAKER_2>I can't remember the name of the everyday one, but the simple one, the middle one, the second one.

  00:02:28.983 --> 00:02:31.863

  <v SPEAKER_2>And then Smitten Kitchen Keepers, which came out last year.

  00:02:32.103 --> 00:02:33.003

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that one there.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, is it everyday?

  00:02:34.343 --> 00:02:35.643

  <v SPEAKER_2>Is that what it's called?

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  <v SPEAKER_2>Anyhow, I'm always interested to find out what the process of other people in my field are.

  00:02:44.063 --> 00:02:45.243

  <v SPEAKER_2>I find it really interesting.

  00:02:45.403 --> 00:02:52.143

  <v SPEAKER_2>Because recipe writing, you kind of get a glimpse into not only the recipe writers' psychology, but also how they view other people.

  00:02:52.803 --> 00:03:00.243

  <v SPEAKER_2>Because that's what a lot of recipe writing is, is trying to figure out how other people think so that you can write them instructions that work.

  00:03:00.603 --> 00:03:04.103

  <v SPEAKER_2>But anyhow, this is all conversation I should be having with her, not by myself in front of you.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So, yeah, Deb Perelman.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>Deb, you can come out, yeah.

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  <v SPEAKER_3>Oh my goodness, what am I in for?

  00:03:32.327 --> 00:03:35.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm sorry, we've got multiple devices.

  00:03:35.027 --> 00:03:37.267

  <v SPEAKER_2>So if you see us on devices, I've got...

  00:03:37.287 --> 00:03:38.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>Are you gonna put the GoPro on?

  00:03:42.007 --> 00:03:49.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>This is questions from you, so if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad.

  00:03:49.767 --> 00:03:51.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>So this is gonna be questions from you.

  00:03:51.567 --> 00:03:56.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>These are questions that I wrote down just in case I forget everything, which I hope won't happen.

  00:03:57.647 --> 00:03:58.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>And do you have a device, too?

  00:03:58.827 --> 00:03:59.967

  <v SPEAKER_3>I have a device here, too.

  00:03:59.987 --> 00:04:02.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>I did not print out my questions before I came from a hotel room.

  00:04:04.267 --> 00:04:06.267

  <v SPEAKER_2>And then this is a...

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  <v SPEAKER_5>Oh my God.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So I moved to Seattle three years ago.

  00:04:18.087 --> 00:04:21.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>And I've since discovered, well, dicks.

  00:04:21.487 --> 00:04:25.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>So dicks is the local burger chain, and I love a good local burger chain, and dicks is a unique one.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>What is unique about dicks?

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So anyhow, yeah, I thought, as someone who's never had dicks, you should try it.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>This is a dicks deluxe.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, wow.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, it smells so good.

  00:04:40.047 --> 00:04:41.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, it's so warm.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, you don't want to so much taste it, it's just kind of experience it, you know.

  00:04:48.087 --> 00:04:50.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>How can I experience it without tasting it?

  00:04:50.187 --> 00:04:55.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>Am I just supposed to look at it and like, should I describe what I see with like.

  00:04:55.947 --> 00:05:00.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>You got to imagine you're outside right now and the sidewalk is like wet and a little grimy.

  00:05:00.387 --> 00:05:02.547

  <v SPEAKER_4>I was going to say, don't tell me it's a sunny day in Seattle.

  00:05:02.567 --> 00:05:03.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'll know you're lying.

  00:05:03.207 --> 00:05:04.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>And you're drunk also.

  00:05:04.187 --> 00:05:07.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>That I am not, but maybe I can fix that.

  00:05:08.067 --> 00:05:08.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>What's in the other.

  00:05:10.807 --> 00:05:13.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>So we have, I'm not supposed to analyze, I'm just supposed to bite into it.

  00:05:13.767 --> 00:05:14.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>You can analyze, you can do whatever you want to do.

  00:05:15.007 --> 00:05:16.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm seeing it's a double patty.

  00:05:19.107 --> 00:05:22.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>There's lettuce, pickles, I'm not sure.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>There's cheese?

  00:05:23.387 --> 00:05:25.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>There's lettuce, there's cheese.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>So they say mayo and chopped pickles.

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  <v SPEAKER_2>It's basically like tartar sauce, yeah.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>That sounds like really good to me.

  00:05:29.927 --> 00:05:30.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>All right, I'm going in.

  00:05:31.307 --> 00:05:33.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm going in.

  00:05:38.207 --> 00:05:39.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>You don't have to pretend.

  00:05:41.127 --> 00:05:43.507

  <v SPEAKER_3>That is not my pretend phase.

  00:05:46.307 --> 00:05:49.227

  <v SPEAKER_2>I mean, you're known for being mean to everyone.

  00:05:49.707 --> 00:05:51.287

  <v SPEAKER_6>I know, I know, I have a mean reputation.

  00:05:51.467 --> 00:05:52.587

  <v SPEAKER_6>That Deb is such a bully.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>I like it a lot.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>I like it because it's really thin and you don't need to unhinge your jaw to eat it.

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  <v SPEAKER_4>Because the pet peeve of mine was so many burgers these days.

  00:06:01.547 --> 00:06:03.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like, why are these so thick?

  00:06:03.147 --> 00:06:04.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>Are people's mouths getting bigger?

  00:06:04.627 --> 00:06:07.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>And like, how are you guys eating this?

  00:06:07.087 --> 00:06:10.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's like light on your jaws and pretty light on your wallet, too.

  00:06:10.387 --> 00:06:11.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, I love this kind of fry, though.

  00:06:11.767 --> 00:06:13.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're dark and they already, they keep the skin on.

  00:06:14.207 --> 00:06:15.267

  <v SPEAKER_2>They keep some of the skin on.

  00:06:15.287 --> 00:06:16.787

  <v SPEAKER_2>They're dark and they, and.

  00:06:16.787 --> 00:06:17.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>This is what I'm going to be doing.

  00:06:20.747 --> 00:06:22.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm eating dinner, you talk.

  00:06:22.067 --> 00:06:27.247

  <v SPEAKER_2>I was going to say, the texture that the fries are now is basically the texture that they are when they serve them to you.

  00:06:27.267 --> 00:06:37.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>You know how some people are like, he never likes this kind of fry because he says they're not crispy enough, but I feel like, oh, I'm taking my mouthful to eat these people, sorry.

  00:06:38.607 --> 00:06:40.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like, my gland method would roll over.

  00:06:40.607 --> 00:06:41.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>Fries that come by the wad.

  00:06:42.247 --> 00:06:47.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>But that they, I feel like they have, they have like a lot more flavor to them and they're probably one of my favorites.

  00:06:47.647 --> 00:06:48.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>I love it.

  00:06:48.107 --> 00:06:52.787

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think they have more flavor because there's, like they kind of fold up and capture salt a little more.

  00:06:52.807 --> 00:06:55.787

  <v SPEAKER_2>And there's also definitely a lot more like the oiliness in there, you know?

  00:06:55.807 --> 00:06:59.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, and when they cool off, I don't feel like they get instantly dry, like some fries do.

  00:06:59.667 --> 00:07:01.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like the really white fries get super dry when they're cool.

  00:07:02.807 --> 00:07:03.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>What?

  00:07:03.147 --> 00:07:04.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like in-and-out fries.

  00:07:04.967 --> 00:07:06.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>I am not, I am not gonna be on the West Coast.

  00:07:06.907 --> 00:07:08.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, are we redoing this?

  00:07:11.547 --> 00:07:13.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's okay, Shake Shack fries are terrible, too.

  00:07:14.207 --> 00:07:17.427

  <v SPEAKER_5>Shake Shack, yeah, those Crangle Fries are so bad.

  00:07:17.447 --> 00:07:18.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>The original ones were good.

  00:07:18.667 --> 00:07:21.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, do you, no, no, so the original fries were the frozen ones.

  00:07:21.227 --> 00:07:24.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>This is why you can't get Kenji and I in a room because we will not stay on the subject.

  00:07:24.107 --> 00:07:28.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>Can you imagine what our podcast editors have to go through trying to keep us on the topic of the day?

  00:07:28.647 --> 00:07:37.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you remember when the, so there was, when the Shake Shack on the Upper East Side, like 86th and Lexington, something like that, it opened up, it was like the third or fourth location.

  00:07:38.307 --> 00:07:39.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>Which was not the original fries.

  00:07:39.447 --> 00:07:55.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>The original fries were the frozen ones, but when the one on 86th Street opened up, you know, Ed Levine, who is an old friend of ours, used to be my boss, he's the founder of Serious Eats, but he used to campaign the folks at Shake Shack to put real fries on their menu, because at Shake Shack, they do the frozen crinkle cuts.

  00:07:55.847 --> 00:07:58.547

  <v SPEAKER_3>And so for, Most restaurants use frozen fries?

  00:07:59.867 --> 00:08:01.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, well, yes, yes.

  00:08:01.407 --> 00:08:02.147

  <v SPEAKER_3>But not deaths.

  00:08:02.167 --> 00:08:03.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>And there's nothing wrong with frozen fries.

  00:08:03.827 --> 00:08:06.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>And most of the time, frozen fries are more consistent and better, I think.

  00:08:06.927 --> 00:08:10.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>But yeah, frozen fries, but it's not the crinkle, it was the crinkle cuts that was the issue.

  00:08:10.107 --> 00:08:17.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>And then for a while, Shake Shack switched to doing fresh fries only at that location as like a test, and people loved them.

  00:08:17.167 --> 00:08:24.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>And then they rolled them out across like all their locations and people revolt, like it was, they were revolted, they did revolt and were revolted.

  00:08:25.447 --> 00:08:27.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>But the crinkles are so bad.

  00:08:27.407 --> 00:08:29.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're so bad, they just arrived dry.

  00:08:30.127 --> 00:08:31.407

  <v SPEAKER_6>The crinkles are not good.

  00:08:31.427 --> 00:08:33.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>Even piping hot and crispy, they're still not good.

  00:08:34.287 --> 00:08:37.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yes, well, cheese sauce, cheese sauce saves a lot of time.

  00:08:37.767 --> 00:08:39.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>Cheese is the answer to all problems.

  00:08:39.627 --> 00:08:41.747

  <v SPEAKER_6>Cheese is delicious here.

  00:08:41.767 --> 00:08:43.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>Are we staying on topic?

  00:08:44.547 --> 00:08:45.867

  <v SPEAKER_5>No, we're completely on topic.

  00:08:45.887 --> 00:08:47.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>We actually do, we have topics.

  00:08:47.347 --> 00:08:48.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>We have topics, I have a topic.

  00:08:49.047 --> 00:08:50.527

  <v SPEAKER_2>Well, I wanted to talk to you first.

  00:08:50.567 --> 00:08:53.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, can I ask you questions first?

  00:08:53.227 --> 00:08:54.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>You can ask me questions first.

  00:08:55.207 --> 00:09:03.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, as I was mentioning, I wanted to get a little bit into your process because I know how I develop recipes, but I don't know how you develop.

  00:09:03.927 --> 00:09:04.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>I mean, well, now I do.

  00:09:05.367 --> 00:09:08.227

  <v SPEAKER_2>Well, first of all, okay, so who was here a year ago?

  00:09:08.247 --> 00:09:11.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, I met Deb for the first time on this, well, I guess backstage.

  00:09:11.467 --> 00:09:12.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>Literally, like five minutes before.

  00:09:12.607 --> 00:09:16.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>About a year ago on the Seattle Stop for Deb's book tour.

  00:09:16.307 --> 00:09:17.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do you remember what I said to you backstage?

  00:09:18.727 --> 00:09:20.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>When I met you for the very first time?

  00:09:20.427 --> 00:09:20.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>What?

  00:09:21.007 --> 00:09:22.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>I should have reviewed this with him first.

  00:09:24.207 --> 00:09:26.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>I said, I'm such a fan, it's so nice to meet you.

  00:09:26.667 --> 00:09:30.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>I love your work, and I'm terrified of your fans.

  00:09:30.907 --> 00:09:31.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, yeah.

  00:09:33.247 --> 00:09:35.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>And what did you say?

  00:09:35.447 --> 00:09:36.167

  <v SPEAKER_6>What did you say?

  00:09:37.307 --> 00:09:37.947

  <v SPEAKER_6>What did you say?

  00:09:37.967 --> 00:09:40.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't remember, I think I probably said, yeah, I understand.

  00:09:40.387 --> 00:09:41.127

  <v SPEAKER_6>You're like, I am too?

  00:09:44.047 --> 00:09:49.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>How many folks were here tonight were there for Deb's last event here?

  00:09:49.327 --> 00:09:49.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

  00:09:52.207 --> 00:09:57.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm sorry to tell you I haven't gotten any less awkward in the last year, so here we are.

  00:09:57.947 --> 00:10:01.327

  <v SPEAKER_2>Well, that event was the first night that we really spoke.

  00:10:02.587 --> 00:10:10.327

  <v SPEAKER_2>We've had maybe correspondence here and there in the past just because we run in the same circles, but that was the first time we'd met in person and spoken in person.

  00:10:10.447 --> 00:10:15.227

  <v SPEAKER_2>And we had such a fun time at that event that we decided, hey, we should do a thing together.

  00:10:17.167 --> 00:10:20.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>So in the year since then, we've been working on this podcast.

  00:10:20.787 --> 00:10:25.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I hope you guys, you should say like, like and subscribe or something.

  00:10:25.547 --> 00:10:26.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>This is not a plug for the podcast.

  00:10:28.087 --> 00:10:33.407

  <v SPEAKER_2>The point is that the podcast, which is called The Recipe, is about the process of developing recipes.

  00:10:33.427 --> 00:10:39.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>And so I do have some idea of your development process, but I thought today we could talk more about it.

  00:10:39.467 --> 00:10:42.787

  <v SPEAKER_2>And in the podcast, we focus on sort of specific recipes.

  00:10:42.807 --> 00:10:47.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>Today, I wanna focus more on just how you go about developing recipes.

  00:10:47.027 --> 00:10:52.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>So in the beginning, like how do you decide what top, like what recipe you're gonna be working on?

  00:10:53.987 --> 00:10:54.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>70?

  00:10:54.607 --> 00:10:57.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>Is it just one at a time or do you have like a million recipes at once?

  00:10:57.207 --> 00:10:58.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I'm working on a million recipes at once.

  00:10:58.927 --> 00:11:04.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's very unhealthy and disorganized, as might be evident from you looking at my website.

  00:11:04.947 --> 00:11:13.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>I, it usually starts with a craving, like either a craving or hunger, like something that I wanna make while at home and I don't have a good airtight recipe for.

  00:11:13.887 --> 00:11:21.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>Once in a while, it comes with like a suggestion for the outside, like somebody reminding me that I haven't done a simple weeknight, like turkey chili or something like that.

  00:11:21.307 --> 00:11:26.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>But most of the time, it comes from me not having like the recipe that I want for the thing that I wanna make.

  00:11:27.587 --> 00:11:32.407

  <v SPEAKER_2>So if you have like a Venn diagram and these are things that you want, right?

  00:11:32.747 --> 00:11:35.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>And then these are things that other people want you to do?

  00:11:35.967 --> 00:11:39.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>That what I want is mostly what matters.

  00:11:39.067 --> 00:11:41.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>Everything's always gonna land somewhere into what you want.

  00:11:42.427 --> 00:11:43.747

  <v SPEAKER_3>It's not, it wouldn't work.

  00:11:44.027 --> 00:11:49.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm too selfish and I would not be able to motivate myself into the kitchen for anything but what I want.

  00:11:51.827 --> 00:11:56.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you have folks who advise you on like we need a recipe, like people are searching for this.

  00:11:56.607 --> 00:11:57.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>We need that.

  00:11:57.347 --> 00:11:58.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>I have nobody.

  00:11:58.787 --> 00:12:00.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I have an assistant.

  00:12:00.547 --> 00:12:01.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>She doesn't do that.

  00:12:01.927 --> 00:12:08.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>My previous assistant was who I had, she was my assistant for about 10 years, but she hasn't been with me for the last couple years.

  00:12:08.667 --> 00:12:09.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>We're, it's okay.

  00:12:09.807 --> 00:12:10.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>We parted amicably.

  00:12:10.947 --> 00:12:12.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm just, I miss her.

  00:12:12.267 --> 00:12:15.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>But she used to be great about suggesting things.

  00:12:15.867 --> 00:12:21.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>In fact, I would say a lot of the recipes that ended up in Smitten Kitchen Capers were her nidging me.

  00:12:21.647 --> 00:12:25.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>Her saying like, you really haven't done a recipe for this and you should do a recipe for this.

  00:12:25.427 --> 00:12:29.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I would always, I would always say, I don't want to do a recipe for that.

  00:12:29.767 --> 00:12:30.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Everybody has a recipe for that.

  00:12:30.887 --> 00:12:31.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's not interesting.

  00:12:31.727 --> 00:12:34.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>Besides, if I was to do a recipe for that, I would do it this way and this way and this way.

  00:12:34.927 --> 00:12:36.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>And she's like, I think that's your recipe.

  00:12:37.007 --> 00:12:38.687

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, that's my recipe.

  00:12:39.927 --> 00:12:45.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>So sometimes it happens like that too, where I just start listing off like a festivus of grievances with recipes.

  00:12:45.827 --> 00:12:51.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>And then I realized that in the space left, I've actually created the recipe or like the blueprint for what I want.

  00:12:51.547 --> 00:12:52.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>Right, right, right.

  00:12:53.567 --> 00:13:02.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>So do you think of your recipe development process as a process of discovery, of problem solving, of something else?

  00:13:02.207 --> 00:13:04.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think of it more as problem solving.

  00:13:04.327 --> 00:13:20.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I usually tend to do quite a bit of work outside the kitchen where I'll look at, if I'm working on a chili recipe, all the chili recipes I've done, all the chili recipes I've tried, if there's something interesting, if Kenji has a chili recipe, I might make his as research, or if there's something that I think...

  00:13:20.807 --> 00:13:24.667

  <v SPEAKER_2>You'll describe it as too complicated, not worth the results?

  00:13:25.547 --> 00:13:29.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yes, and then three days later, when I finish the recipe...

  00:13:30.467 --> 00:13:44.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I put everything together into what I call one best case scenario recipe, and it's an open document on a laptop in the kitchen, risking its life every day.

  00:13:44.127 --> 00:13:46.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>Your best case scenario recipe is like a...

  00:13:46.507 --> 00:13:54.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>I basically write a draft of the recipe, and then as I'm testing, I basically change everything or just delete, so I take notes as I go.

  00:13:54.627 --> 00:14:00.067

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, okay, so that's similar to actually how the Cooks Illustrated process is where...

  00:14:00.107 --> 00:14:02.547

  <v SPEAKER_4>Wow, that's so cool.

  00:14:02.607 --> 00:14:05.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Have you not met the folks at Cooks Illustrated?

  00:14:05.767 --> 00:14:07.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>I've gotten to go up there twice, it was fun.

  00:14:07.767 --> 00:14:08.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>I haven't been there in a few years.

  00:14:08.747 --> 00:14:10.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>So at Cooks Illustrated, the process there...

  00:14:11.527 --> 00:14:25.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>I worked there for, I don't know how long, three, four years, I can't remember, but the process there, they do at the beginning what they call the five recipe test, where when you decide what recipe you're gonna work on, which is always exactly what the reader wants, nothing to do with what you want.

  00:14:25.907 --> 00:14:26.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's where you differ.

  00:14:26.887 --> 00:14:46.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>But the first step of the recipe process is finding a cross section of five recipes that you think are either representative of recipes out there, or the breadth of recipes out there, or recipes that you think look particularly destined to be good, or have a particularly interesting technique.

  00:14:46.147 --> 00:14:55.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>And so you do those five recipes and then get feedback on them, and then you kind of cobble together a working recipe from the bits and, like a Franken recipe from the bits and pieces that.

  00:14:55.507 --> 00:14:56.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think it's a lot like that.

  00:14:56.767 --> 00:15:01.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>And also over the years I might have made these recipes, and I always try to take notes when I make a recipe.

  00:15:01.547 --> 00:15:05.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, I liked this, I didn't like this, I think this idea has legs, and then I make something else.

  00:15:06.327 --> 00:15:20.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>I will say that if I've drafted up a version of a recipe that I think will work, and then I'm looking around, and that basically exists, and somebody's published it, I'll probably just make theirs whole, like beginning to end, and just make sure that I have something to add.

  00:15:20.447 --> 00:15:27.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>Because if it's just gonna be the same as what's already published, even if I got there on my own, I don't wanna do it for vegan.

  00:15:27.507 --> 00:15:31.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>So let's say there is this whole in your repertoire.

  00:15:31.427 --> 00:15:37.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>Let's say it's a whole for, you've got like a whole for pasta puttanesca, right?

  00:15:37.467 --> 00:15:37.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you?

  00:15:37.867 --> 00:15:39.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

  00:15:39.947 --> 00:15:41.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, no, I think I have one.

  00:15:41.287 --> 00:15:42.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, you know what's a good example?

  00:15:43.107 --> 00:15:45.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>What I put on Socialist Today was the coconut cream pie.

  00:15:45.627 --> 00:15:47.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>I had not done a coconut cream pie.

  00:15:47.607 --> 00:15:52.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>Everyone loves the, or at some point has loved, the Dahlia Bakery one.

  00:15:52.487 --> 00:15:56.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I really, I made that one, and I felt like it was a very good version.

  00:15:56.527 --> 00:16:02.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>I made a few tweaks, like the way I prefer to make custard and crust and whipped cream, so that's pretty fundamental tweaks.

  00:16:02.627 --> 00:16:06.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>But the gesture, the spirit is from there.

  00:16:06.527 --> 00:16:08.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay, but I mean, that's what I do.

  00:16:08.527 --> 00:16:11.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>I try to make recipes work more reliably for everybody.

  00:16:11.727 --> 00:16:16.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>So that's, I think, a perfect example of like the recipe was out there and it's really just adapted from there.

  00:16:16.847 --> 00:16:18.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>So say you have that whole.

  00:16:18.387 --> 00:16:28.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's, the whole is in your heart, the whole is in your blog, and you find a recipe that exists out there and it's just perfect, and there's nothing you can say, nothing you can do, nothing you can change about it.

  00:16:29.467 --> 00:16:32.347

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you, how do you share that recipe with your readers?

  00:16:33.507 --> 00:16:36.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>Most of the time, I would say in earlier years, I would probably do a version of it.

  00:16:36.807 --> 00:16:38.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>These days, I would just tell you to make the other one.

  00:16:39.187 --> 00:16:43.687

  <v SPEAKER_4>Especially if that person's publishing and like out there, you know, you know, trying to get.

  00:16:44.367 --> 00:16:45.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>What's changed over those years?

  00:16:46.187 --> 00:16:51.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think that I feel a lot more limited than I used to when I make other people's recipes.

  00:16:51.667 --> 00:16:53.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't, I'm not good at it the way I used to be.

  00:16:53.907 --> 00:16:56.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm not good at making other people's recipes.

  00:16:56.787 --> 00:16:57.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>I want to change everything.

  00:16:58.087 --> 00:17:12.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>And so I guess, yeah, so I'm not, I'm not, I'm really, when I've decided to make a recipe from a cookbook, I really struggle sticking to it and not changing everything to the point that it might be like insulting to the cookbook to be like, this is a great cookbook.

  00:17:12.467 --> 00:17:14.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>I like the recipe, I changed everything about it.

  00:17:14.587 --> 00:17:22.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>I would start to publish recipes that were going in that direction and I wasn't supposed to be insulting, but that's where I just kind of, that was a very long answer.

  00:17:22.787 --> 00:17:24.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't do it as much.

  00:17:25.547 --> 00:17:26.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>Did that answer the question?

  00:17:27.787 --> 00:17:29.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay, well, I answered a question.

  00:17:30.707 --> 00:17:32.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>Can I ask you a question or do you have more questions?

  00:17:33.007 --> 00:17:37.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>I was gonna ask you another question on a similar subject now that we're here.

  00:17:38.567 --> 00:17:44.667

  <v SPEAKER_2>How do you, there's a lot of stuff going on on the internet right now about plagiarism.

  00:17:44.687 --> 00:17:48.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know if people watch YouTube drama and everyone's familiar with H.

  00:17:48.907 --> 00:17:52.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>Bomberguy's video with this 80 million view video about plagiarism.

  00:17:55.307 --> 00:17:57.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's about the essay video space in YouTube.

  00:17:57.767 --> 00:18:04.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>But as you and I both know, there's also a lot of recipe plagiarism that goes on.

  00:18:06.347 --> 00:18:15.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>What is your take on when people, and I'm sure it's happened to you, but when people take your work uncredited, do you care, does that bother you?

  00:18:16.127 --> 00:18:21.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>And has that changed over the years, like from 2007 until 2020?

  00:18:21.907 --> 00:18:23.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>I see the offline a little bit.

  00:18:23.647 --> 00:18:27.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>I pout, I have a little document, you can't open it.

  00:18:27.607 --> 00:18:30.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>Nobody's ever gonna see it called like Shetlist.

  00:18:32.147 --> 00:18:35.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>I put it there, a little link to the recipe that's pissing me off.

  00:18:35.607 --> 00:18:37.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>And then I move on because I'm not out of ideas.

  00:18:38.387 --> 00:18:39.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's the benevolent view.

  00:18:39.887 --> 00:18:40.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm not out of ideas.

  00:18:40.847 --> 00:18:41.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>Some people have to take ideas.

  00:18:41.727 --> 00:18:42.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>Does that help you writing the list?

  00:18:43.687 --> 00:18:45.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Sometimes, or just knowing that it exists?

  00:18:47.767 --> 00:18:54.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, it makes me happy, but there are people who have to take ideas and there are people who have ideas.

  00:18:54.667 --> 00:18:57.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I don't think I've gotten through 10% of my ideas.

  00:18:57.327 --> 00:19:00.227

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I'm not gonna run out and I can just keep creating stuff.

  00:19:00.267 --> 00:19:02.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's the benevolent view.

  00:19:03.667 --> 00:19:07.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay, that's a good attitude.

  00:19:07.407 --> 00:19:08.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>Writing a list is a good idea.

  00:19:08.727 --> 00:19:09.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>I should do that.

  00:19:09.327 --> 00:19:14.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>Just keep a little list and then you just close the document and it's there and then it's just stupid, but.

  00:19:15.067 --> 00:19:17.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>I feel like my therapist tells me to keep lists of things.

  00:19:17.227 --> 00:19:19.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, my therapist definitely improves with the list.

  00:19:21.307 --> 00:19:22.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>Ask you a question.

  00:19:22.207 --> 00:19:23.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh sure, yeah, yeah.

  00:19:23.127 --> 00:19:27.227

  <v SPEAKER_2>You've written something on a list right now.

  00:19:27.527 --> 00:19:31.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>All right, so first of all, what's your recipe development process like?

  00:19:31.327 --> 00:19:35.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>That was not on my list, but now I wanna ask you this too.

  00:19:35.527 --> 00:19:37.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you mean like start to finish?

  00:19:37.687 --> 00:19:38.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, start to, like the whole thing.

  00:19:38.927 --> 00:19:40.847

  <v SPEAKER_4>Or just like the, or how does it, how is it different?

  00:19:40.867 --> 00:19:42.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like chunk from the Goonies style story, just every detail?

  00:19:42.607 --> 00:19:43.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>What does it start with?

  00:19:43.587 --> 00:19:48.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>Does your editor for your, which is, like the New York Times, do they tell you what to write or do you pitch things?

  00:19:48.967 --> 00:19:50.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>I pitch things, yeah.

  00:19:50.687 --> 00:19:54.547

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's more, you know, there's different inspirations.

  00:19:54.767 --> 00:20:00.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>Most of the time, it's similar to yours, where it's like I'm working on something for dinner, it's like I need to cook for my family.

  00:20:01.167 --> 00:20:21.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>And either it's like, oh, I had an idea based on like ingredients I had in my fridge and like this might be useful for other people, or sometimes it's like, you know what, like here's this like, oftentimes it's more like, hey, here's this like recipe that seems to have a lot of details involved in it, you know, that people seem to like to debate.

  00:20:21.147 --> 00:20:22.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know, like schnitzel, right?

  00:20:22.507 --> 00:20:25.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like people like to talk about it, debate it, and there's like all this stuff.

  00:20:26.067 --> 00:20:34.507

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, you know, so I do like to look for recipes that are like ripe with avenues for testing, because I find, you know, the testing bits.

  00:20:34.547 --> 00:20:35.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do you test at dinnertime?

  00:20:35.647 --> 00:20:37.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>Because I find myself doing that a lot.

  00:20:37.207 --> 00:20:43.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like if I see an interesting schnitzel recipe and like something I haven't tried before, I would say, I'm going to make this for dinner tonight.

  00:20:43.747 --> 00:20:44.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>And that's the-

  00:20:44.307 --> 00:20:46.047

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I mean, certainly I don't waste food.

  00:20:46.067 --> 00:20:51.267

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like we, if I'm testing schnitzel, then we eat a lot of schnitzel at home.

  00:20:51.827 --> 00:20:58.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think for me, it's like before I'm even working on a schnitzel recipe, I might just be like, oh, this sounds interesting making it for dinner.

  00:20:58.447 --> 00:20:59.847

  <v SPEAKER_4>Take some notes another time.

  00:20:59.867 --> 00:21:01.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like, oh, this is another one.

  00:21:01.227 --> 00:21:02.227

  <v SPEAKER_4>Make a different recipe.

  00:21:02.247 --> 00:21:08.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>And now when I decide I want to like develop a schnitzel recipe, I look back at my notes from the first and the second and go back to it.

  00:21:08.607 --> 00:21:11.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>But sometimes I just pick it up for dinner time because I was curious.

  00:21:12.127 --> 00:21:13.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>I would say, yeah, absolutely.

  00:21:13.887 --> 00:21:33.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>Generally, if I'm interested in something the first few times, I'll just make it without really thinking about it too much and just kind of trying to get like a kind of, you know, like instead of like a Cooks Illustrated style five recipe test, I'll do like a make this at home for dinner a couple times, you know, recipe test, where, yeah, I do look at existing recipes and sort of make sure that I understand like what, I mean, I guess that's the first step.

  00:21:33.947 --> 00:21:41.667

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like once I just, once I think, okay, schnitzel, then I wanna get an idea of what people think schnitzel is, you know, and so.

  00:21:41.827 --> 00:21:44.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's wrong, however you make it, it's probably.

  00:21:44.087 --> 00:21:51.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>Well, that's one of the things you find out about a lot of dishes is that, is that like people in different countries have different ideas, people in Germany versus Austria have different ideas.

  00:21:51.787 --> 00:22:02.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like it's, you gotta figure out who your audience is and you gotta make sure that you at least address alternate viewpoints so that you can show you are thorough in your work, you know.

  00:22:02.487 --> 00:22:04.887

  <v SPEAKER_6>I'm gonna switch just slightly.

  00:22:05.387 --> 00:22:07.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Is there such thing as a deal breaker in a recipe for you?

  00:22:07.867 --> 00:22:12.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>Is there something that could come up in a recipe and you're like, absolutely not, I'm out, I'm not doing it.

  00:22:12.267 --> 00:22:16.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like it could be an ingredient or it could be something that takes time.

  00:22:16.547 --> 00:22:20.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like if you were looking at a recipe to make, is there anything that you would just sign off?

  00:22:20.367 --> 00:22:30.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>For me, recipes are almost always like a last minute, like I don't go peruse my cookbooks looking for recipe and plan to make it next Sunday, right?

  00:22:30.587 --> 00:22:31.267

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like I don't do that.

  00:22:31.287 --> 00:22:35.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's more like, oh, like I have these blueberries that are gonna go bad.

  00:22:35.627 --> 00:22:36.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>I wanna make blueberry muffins.

  00:22:36.887 --> 00:22:38.667

  <v SPEAKER_2>Does Deb have a recipe, right?

  00:22:40.487 --> 00:22:42.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>I've never heard of a recipe for a recipe.

  00:22:42.947 --> 00:22:44.647

  <v SPEAKER_2>A recipe is great, by the way.

  00:22:44.887 --> 00:22:52.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>No, so the deal breaker for me for any recipe is basically if I, well, there's not really a deal breaker for recipe because I generally don't follow the recipes.

  00:22:52.207 --> 00:22:54.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'll like use them as a guideline, you know?

  00:22:54.447 --> 00:23:00.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>And I feel like once you understand sort of the technical aspects of cooking enough, you don't really, you don't need to follow the exact recipe.

  00:23:00.787 --> 00:23:02.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>So you're just vibing in the kitchen.

  00:23:02.287 --> 00:23:07.247

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm vibing and if a recipe tells me like I have to leave the house to go get this thing, then I'm not gonna do that.

  00:23:07.267 --> 00:23:08.547

  <v SPEAKER_4>We're no longer vibing with that.

  00:23:08.567 --> 00:23:10.427

  <v SPEAKER_3>We're no longer vibing with this recipe.

  00:23:10.447 --> 00:23:11.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>What about you?

  00:23:11.387 --> 00:23:12.247

  <v SPEAKER_2>What's your deal breaker?

  00:23:12.587 --> 00:23:13.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>Marmite, it turns out.

  00:23:13.667 --> 00:23:14.527

  <v SPEAKER_3>I was making your.

  00:23:16.947 --> 00:23:17.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, it does not.

  00:23:18.007 --> 00:23:23.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>I made your meatloaf a week or two ago and it was, I got all the ingredients and then it got to the marmite.

  00:23:23.267 --> 00:23:26.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, I'm not, I'm not buying this for a half a teaspoon of marmite.

  00:23:26.727 --> 00:23:27.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do people know what marmite is?

  00:23:30.807 --> 00:23:32.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know, I don't think I've bought any since I've come to Seattle.

  00:23:32.947 --> 00:23:33.667

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know where you get it here.

  00:23:33.687 --> 00:23:34.807

  <v SPEAKER_4>Isn't the shelf life eternal?

  00:23:35.447 --> 00:23:36.347

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, yeah.

  00:23:38.467 --> 00:23:39.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think our jar got lost in the move.

  00:23:39.907 --> 00:23:41.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>I just said that was the one thing.

  00:23:41.147 --> 00:23:43.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, I get to pick one thing, I'm not gonna do it.

  00:23:43.027 --> 00:23:44.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm not, I'm not buying marmite.

  00:23:44.787 --> 00:23:45.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, but you still made the recipe.

  00:23:45.627 --> 00:23:51.687

  <v SPEAKER_4>Also, I lived in a small apartment and I have a small fridge and I just cannot with ingredients that I have no plans to use again.

  00:23:52.027 --> 00:23:53.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>I bought everything else though.

  00:23:53.467 --> 00:23:53.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, okay.

  00:23:54.007 --> 00:23:57.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>I found some gelatin that had expired in 2016.

  00:23:57.227 --> 00:24:05.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>You know, they're always like people making fun of like their parents for having really old stuff in their kitchens, but what they don't tell you is when you get older, your stuff gets older too.

  00:24:07.747 --> 00:24:14.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>And if you've been cooking for 12 years, you probably have some 12 year expired recipes and if you, ingredients, so.

  00:24:15.287 --> 00:24:20.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>All right, so you don't have, there's no such thing as a recipe jailbreaker for you because you're just kind of like vibing and working.

  00:24:20.947 --> 00:24:23.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I don't often follow strict, do you follow strict recipes?

  00:24:23.907 --> 00:24:27.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>Very strictly, I'm a very literal recipe cook.

  00:24:27.227 --> 00:24:29.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>I love recipes.

  00:24:29.487 --> 00:24:32.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>Even when I've made it a million times, I love recipes.

  00:24:32.707 --> 00:24:37.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>I love the guidance, I love the guarantee and it should have a guarantee or it's not a good recipe.

  00:24:38.867 --> 00:24:47.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I like the idea that like, it's already been figured out and I can just like be on this ride and it will get me to this dish that I want.

  00:24:48.787 --> 00:24:56.067

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you like to watch, like, you don't like to watch your kids and see like the delight in their face when they realize there's like twice as much nutmeg in the mac and cheese this time?

  00:24:58.507 --> 00:24:58.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>No.

  00:24:59.527 --> 00:25:03.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think when I get it exactly right, I want to make it exactly that way.

  00:25:03.347 --> 00:25:13.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>And if I'm changing it, I'm changing it in a very, like, and other reason is because sometimes I'll just be messing around and I won't write things down and it will be perfect and I'll never get that back.

  00:25:13.187 --> 00:25:14.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'll never be able to recreate it.

  00:25:15.287 --> 00:25:24.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I really like, I like following recipes as part of my own recipe development and I like following recipes as part of like days are long, life is difficult.

  00:25:24.747 --> 00:25:29.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>If I follow ABC, I'm gonna have an amazing dish and I think that's a beautiful thing to give yourself.

  00:25:30.267 --> 00:25:30.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>So.

  00:25:32.147 --> 00:25:36.807

  <v SPEAKER_5>Wow, thanks.

  00:25:36.827 --> 00:25:56.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>So when you follow, when you use that approach, how do you count for, so a couple of things, like how do you count for, first of all, like if like a brand of something you like isn't available and or even beyond that, like how do you count for like, like I don't know, brand drift, you know, like it's like the McCormick, whatever, oregano, today is not gonna be the same, like the one that you have that's from 1986.

  00:25:56.307 --> 00:26:05.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>I let it go, no, I mean, obviously, if your paprika's a few years old, it's not gonna have any flavor, it's just like red dust, but even one year, it's kind of just like red dust.

  00:26:05.427 --> 00:26:06.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>I just let it go.

  00:26:06.307 --> 00:26:13.847

  <v SPEAKER_4>Generally, I use kind of like middle of the road products, especially when I'm thinking about recipe developing, like store brand butter or I don't know, King Arthur or gold metal flour.

  00:26:13.867 --> 00:26:15.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm trying not to use anything that might give me.

  00:26:15.607 --> 00:26:18.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>But I mean, if the recipe is perfect, right, you tasted it, it's perfect.

  00:26:18.967 --> 00:26:21.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>But then the next time, it's like your onion's a little less pungent.

  00:26:21.827 --> 00:26:22.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, it doesn't happen.

  00:26:22.747 --> 00:26:24.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>Once it's perfect, it's going to be perfect forever.

  00:26:24.847 --> 00:26:25.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>Maybe this happens to you.

  00:26:25.987 --> 00:26:28.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>It doesn't happen to me.

  00:26:29.307 --> 00:26:29.787

  <v SPEAKER_6>I don't know.

  00:26:29.807 --> 00:26:31.007

  <v SPEAKER_6>I don't feel like it's happened a lot.

  00:26:31.027 --> 00:26:34.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>But usually, I can pinpoint what it is because I've made it a bunch of times the same way.

  00:26:34.627 --> 00:26:37.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>And so I know like, oh, the cheese didn't melt.

  00:26:37.107 --> 00:26:38.847

  <v SPEAKER_4>Well, it might be that I'm using this different brand.

  00:26:38.887 --> 00:26:41.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, because I mean, you at least can blame it on the paprika.

  00:26:41.507 --> 00:26:42.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>I will definitely blame it.

  00:26:42.367 --> 00:26:43.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's not me.

  00:26:43.027 --> 00:26:43.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm perfect.

  00:26:43.787 --> 00:26:46.687

  <v SPEAKER_4>So if something else happened, it was probably at the grocery store.

  00:26:49.127 --> 00:26:52.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>All right, so no such thing as a deal breaker and a recipe for you.

  00:26:53.647 --> 00:26:57.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>What food do you not ever get sick of, like for the rest of your life?

  00:26:57.807 --> 00:26:58.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>Pizza.

  00:26:58.127 --> 00:27:00.587

  <v SPEAKER_3>You didn't even have to finish the question.

  00:27:00.607 --> 00:27:02.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>So the last time, not the last time.

  00:27:02.387 --> 00:27:03.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>Wait, wasn't the last time we saw each other?

  00:27:03.887 --> 00:27:05.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>Not the last time we saw each other, but the time before the last time.

  00:27:06.167 --> 00:27:08.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>When we were in, we met at.

  00:27:08.127 --> 00:27:10.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>We went to McSorley's and we met those guys.

  00:27:10.907 --> 00:27:14.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yes, so we went to McSorley's, which is an old bar in New York.

  00:27:15.667 --> 00:27:17.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>Only recently started letting women in.

  00:27:17.467 --> 00:27:18.887

  <v SPEAKER_3>Not like 50 years ago.

  00:27:19.107 --> 00:27:20.627

  <v SPEAKER_3>No, it really, I mean, it's relatively.

  00:27:20.647 --> 00:27:21.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>You're thinking, oh, 1920s.

  00:27:21.847 --> 00:27:23.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, it was like the 70s or something.

  00:27:23.447 --> 00:27:25.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>I have to look it up.

  00:27:25.267 --> 00:27:26.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>It was really late.

  00:27:26.227 --> 00:27:27.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>The 70s?

  00:27:27.147 --> 00:27:29.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>It was really, I got to, I listened to the podcast about it.

  00:27:31.747 --> 00:27:35.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>It was begrudgingly, and it was, I think, don't quote me on it.

  00:27:35.207 --> 00:27:35.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'll Google it.

  00:27:35.947 --> 00:27:38.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>But it was late, much later than you'd think.

  00:27:38.667 --> 00:27:45.527

  <v SPEAKER_2>Well, we were at McSorley's and then we went a couple blocks away to a pizzeria that, at the time, the pizzeria was formerly known as Funzee's.

  00:27:45.547 --> 00:27:47.407

  <v SPEAKER_2>I thought it was great.

  00:27:47.427 --> 00:27:48.807

  <v SPEAKER_2>So the pizzeria is still there.

  00:27:48.827 --> 00:27:50.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know what they changed their name to.

  00:27:50.627 --> 00:27:51.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>They had a bad breakup.

  00:27:52.787 --> 00:27:55.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>Funzee is the name of the kid of the owner.

  00:27:56.107 --> 00:27:59.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>The owner and the chefs and the landlords or something had a bad breakup.

  00:27:59.147 --> 00:28:00.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>Something's going.

  00:28:00.047 --> 00:28:01.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>The space is cursed.

  00:28:01.107 --> 00:28:02.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think there's something with the landlord.

  00:28:02.287 --> 00:28:04.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>But the guys making the pizza are the same.

  00:28:04.947 --> 00:28:06.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>And they took the Funzee's off the sign.

  00:28:06.847 --> 00:28:08.247

  <v SPEAKER_2>And it just says pizzeria now, I think.

  00:28:08.267 --> 00:28:09.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>Or at least the last time I was there, it just said pizzeria.

  00:28:09.927 --> 00:28:11.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's three blocks in my apartment.

  00:28:11.027 --> 00:28:12.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, oh, I had no idea.

  00:28:14.547 --> 00:28:16.347

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's where we met last time we were in New York.

  00:28:16.367 --> 00:28:18.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>And I was in the middle of a...

  00:28:18.567 --> 00:28:19.267

  <v SPEAKER_2>I was recording.

  00:28:19.287 --> 00:28:21.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>I was in New York for just a couple of days, yeah.

  00:28:21.307 --> 00:28:24.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>But I was in New York for maybe 50 hours.

  00:28:24.467 --> 00:28:26.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>And I ate nothing but pizza the whole time.

  00:28:26.107 --> 00:28:26.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>How did you feel after?

  00:28:26.947 --> 00:28:27.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>What's that?

  00:28:27.707 --> 00:28:28.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>How did you feel?

  00:28:28.387 --> 00:28:30.647

  <v SPEAKER_2>I felt good.

  00:28:31.927 --> 00:28:33.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>Maybe we should study him.

  00:28:33.167 --> 00:28:34.387

  <v SPEAKER_3>I would be on my deathbed.

  00:28:34.547 --> 00:28:37.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'd be like, I just need one piece of broccoli.

  00:28:37.747 --> 00:28:40.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like broccoli in one hand and kale in the other.

  00:28:41.367 --> 00:28:43.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>I mean, there's good pizza in Seattle, but it's different.

  00:28:43.727 --> 00:28:46.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>How has your cooking evolved since having children?

  00:28:46.187 --> 00:28:49.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, I mean, a lot.

  00:28:49.007 --> 00:28:54.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>Are you still making 14 ingredient, 17 ingredient meatloaves on a weekday night?

  00:28:54.327 --> 00:28:56.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>No, I don't know.

  00:28:56.027 --> 00:28:59.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>I told you, I don't get ingredients that aren't already in my kitchen.

  00:28:59.747 --> 00:29:01.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>So you're just, because you're vibing.

  00:29:01.887 --> 00:29:06.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, no, I mean, I use a lot more like, yeah, pre-made stuff for sure.

  00:29:07.247 --> 00:29:14.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I guess it hasn't evolved too much in the sense that I still try and use what I've got at home.

  00:29:14.147 --> 00:29:15.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't make special choice for things.

  00:29:15.667 --> 00:29:21.407

  <v SPEAKER_2>But also, yeah, you have to factor in the fact that you can't be in your kitchen all day on a Sunday.

  00:29:21.427 --> 00:29:23.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>Or if you are, you're gonna have distractions.

  00:29:23.727 --> 00:29:29.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>Or if you're gonna be doing something with your kids, they're gonna be, whatever you need to do is gonna take four times longer.

  00:29:29.587 --> 00:29:31.107

  <v SPEAKER_3>And then they're gonna be, I'm hungry.

  00:29:31.607 --> 00:29:33.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>And you're like, I know, you're making it take a long time.

  00:29:33.927 --> 00:29:35.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's why dinner's not ready.

  00:29:38.867 --> 00:29:44.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, yeah, certainly being a lot more aware of people's time constraints.

  00:29:45.107 --> 00:29:47.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>Which, yeah, I don't know.

  00:29:47.487 --> 00:29:49.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>My audience is aging with me, I hope.

  00:29:51.327 --> 00:29:52.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's definitely helpful.

  00:29:52.687 --> 00:29:54.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>What about you?

  00:29:55.047 --> 00:30:08.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>When you were younger, Deb, just starting out, just starting out with Smitten Kitchen, does current Deb, current young Deb, all the hopes and dreams that younger Deb had starting out with Smitten Kitchen, what were your hopes and dreams?

  00:30:08.987 --> 00:30:10.407

  <v SPEAKER_2>Did you have a plan in mind?

  00:30:11.067 --> 00:30:13.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, no, I've never had a plan or a plan.

  00:30:13.127 --> 00:30:14.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't even have a plan for this year, guys.

  00:30:15.247 --> 00:30:19.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm really not a planner at all.

  00:30:19.087 --> 00:30:21.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>Did you think about why am I doing this, where am I going with it?

  00:30:21.947 --> 00:30:22.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>What's gonna happen?

  00:30:22.987 --> 00:30:23.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>No.

  00:30:23.727 --> 00:30:25.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>And like five years into it, were you thinking about that?

  00:30:25.627 --> 00:30:25.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>No.

  00:30:26.627 --> 00:30:27.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>No.

  00:30:27.487 --> 00:30:31.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>I know, it sounds so bad, but I was just like, this is really fun and I'm glad I get to keep doing it.

  00:30:31.687 --> 00:30:32.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm gonna keep doing it.

  00:30:33.507 --> 00:30:34.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>And that was it.

  00:30:34.147 --> 00:30:43.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>I've never had like a five-year plan or a 10-year plan, and I'm sure I should, and I would probably have like my life a lot more together if I did, but I'm honestly, so I'm vibing with my career.

  00:30:43.307 --> 00:30:44.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you find?

  00:30:44.687 --> 00:30:45.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's where my vibing is.

  00:30:46.047 --> 00:30:47.227

  <v SPEAKER_3>It's the only vibe I have.

  00:30:47.247 --> 00:30:49.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm just gonna roll with it and see what happens.

  00:30:49.407 --> 00:30:51.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you find any parts of it not fun?

  00:30:52.147 --> 00:30:52.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.

  00:30:53.607 --> 00:30:54.727

  <v SPEAKER_3>Oh, that was super correct.

  00:30:55.827 --> 00:30:58.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>Anything I don't feel like doing that moment is not fun.

  00:30:58.507 --> 00:30:59.807

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's no longer fun.

  00:30:59.827 --> 00:31:03.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't know, I like social media, but it takes up a lot of time.

  00:31:03.087 --> 00:31:08.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>I know I'm supposed to have hired a social media intern or whatever, but that also seems ridiculous.

  00:31:08.347 --> 00:31:11.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>I love the chatty part of the social media, but like...

  00:31:11.027 --> 00:31:13.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>Right, and you can't hire someone to chat for you, right?

  00:31:13.067 --> 00:31:14.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I don't, no, that's the part I like.

  00:31:14.907 --> 00:31:18.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>I just mean like, you know, just trying to pull things from the archives and stuff.

  00:31:18.107 --> 00:31:19.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>I guess it's outsourceable.

  00:31:19.647 --> 00:31:22.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm very bad at outsourcing, so I kind of just do everything myself.

  00:31:23.087 --> 00:31:28.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>And there's things, you know, it gets to be a job.

  00:31:28.507 --> 00:31:29.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I never wanted a job.

  00:31:29.687 --> 00:31:32.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>I didn't start this because I wanted a job.

  00:31:32.547 --> 00:31:33.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>Doing live events.

  00:31:36.027 --> 00:31:42.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I just mean like, you know, I always try to, you know, and yeah, so there's definitely parts that I would say like I wouldn't do it for free.

  00:31:43.087 --> 00:31:53.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>How do you, how do you man, so, you know, as someone who is basically in charge of your entire output and in charge of your, like all your publicity.

  00:31:53.327 --> 00:32:05.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>And so, you know, it's like, it's like there's this thing in your life, you know, and I don't know if this is, at least for me, and I don't know if it's the same for you, but where it feels like everything you do has some impact on your career, you know, one way or another.

  00:32:05.927 --> 00:32:09.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>And it's difficult, like I often find it difficult to disengage.

  00:32:09.607 --> 00:32:22.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like part of my process, like my growing process since I started doing this has been, yeah, like trying to disengage those two things and trying to figure out how to really make sure that I set, you know, set boundaries for myself.

  00:32:22.047 --> 00:32:22.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Not working 24-7.

  00:32:22.887 --> 00:32:23.787

  <v SPEAKER_2>That, you know, yeah.

  00:32:23.807 --> 00:32:25.327

  <v SPEAKER_2>How do you, how do you, how do you deal with all that?

  00:32:25.347 --> 00:32:29.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, it's definitely a thing, I don't feel like there's ever a day that I don't do any work at all.

  00:32:29.447 --> 00:32:35.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like there's always something, and it's usually like checking in with social media or just like, you know, reading new comments that have come in.

  00:32:35.667 --> 00:32:41.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>I will say that, I don't know, I hear about people hiring like business managers that like tell them what to do every day.

  00:32:41.907 --> 00:32:43.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, that sounds kind of nice.

  00:32:43.767 --> 00:32:46.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I'm completely forgetting that I don't listen to anyone who tells me what to do.

  00:32:46.667 --> 00:32:49.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>Even people with very good advice were like working for me.

  00:32:49.407 --> 00:32:50.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I don't know.

  00:32:50.667 --> 00:33:01.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>I definitely think sometimes it would be nice to have, you know, you talk about having like a five-year plan or whatever, but I actually have many times thought it would be nice if I had a very clear vision of where I wanted to go.

  00:33:01.987 --> 00:33:10.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>But although there are things I'd like to do, I didn't have like one clear role model where I was like, if I could be this person, I would have the perfect career.

  00:33:11.027 --> 00:33:12.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>Except for Ida Garten, of course.

  00:33:12.727 --> 00:33:17.967

  <v SPEAKER_6>But aside from that, she's in a completely different world from me.

  00:33:21.827 --> 00:33:27.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>But in the sense that you started your career in the wild west of food blog days.

  00:33:27.887 --> 00:33:31.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>It was weird back then.

  00:33:31.867 --> 00:33:35.647

  <v SPEAKER_2>Nobody knew where money was coming from or where readers were coming from.

  00:33:35.667 --> 00:33:37.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>It was a very different world.

  00:33:44.707 --> 00:33:47.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>You started Smitten Kitchen in 2006, when magazines and newspapers were like that.

  00:33:47.587 --> 00:33:49.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>That print to digital transition period.

  00:33:49.607 --> 00:33:50.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>But they weren't transitioning.

  00:33:51.167 --> 00:33:56.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think in that lull, that's why you had so many blogs blowing up.

  00:33:57.067 --> 00:34:01.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>A lot of traditional media and even newspapers didn't want to be online.

  00:34:01.207 --> 00:34:02.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>They didn't want to have websites.

  00:34:02.527 --> 00:34:06.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>Their usual writers considered it a step down to write for the web.

  00:34:06.307 --> 00:34:12.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>So all these self-published websites, aka blogs, kind of that was the golden age.

  00:34:12.287 --> 00:34:17.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>You couldn't have really had many idols to look up to because it was a new field.

  00:34:17.147 --> 00:34:19.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>There was nobody who was doing what you were doing.

  00:34:19.607 --> 00:34:23.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>You had contemporaries but not a previous generation.

  00:34:23.147 --> 00:34:25.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>There are people who I think are doing an amazing job.

  00:34:25.167 --> 00:34:26.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think the Pioneer Woman is so cool.

  00:34:26.767 --> 00:34:28.727

  <v SPEAKER_3>I love that she's built this whole thing for herself.

  00:34:29.287 --> 00:34:30.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>But it wasn't right for me.

  00:34:31.907 --> 00:34:33.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Not right for some of the people in the audience either.

  00:34:35.487 --> 00:34:38.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>Some people released some snakes under the pews.

  00:34:38.187 --> 00:34:44.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>In 2008, I think, or 2009, I went out to her lodge and I hung out with her for a weekend.

  00:34:44.667 --> 00:34:45.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm a fan for life.

  00:34:47.327 --> 00:34:48.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>She's so lovely.

  00:34:48.427 --> 00:34:50.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>I met her once at a Serious Eats thing.

  00:34:50.047 --> 00:34:52.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>She was the most down-to-earth person you've ever met.

  00:34:52.287 --> 00:34:53.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>Shockingly so.

  00:34:53.507 --> 00:34:55.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>Unrelated, were you on Martha Stewart's show once?

  00:34:55.927 --> 00:34:57.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>I've been on Martha Stewart's show.

  00:34:59.747 --> 00:35:01.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>Very randomly, just said the name Martha Stewart.

  00:35:05.467 --> 00:35:06.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>I have more questions.

  00:35:06.187 --> 00:35:06.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do you have more questions?

  00:35:08.027 --> 00:35:18.687

  <v SPEAKER_4>What is the ingredient that is not salt that you think a shocking number of recipes are missing or like the ingredient that you think people should be using more at home to improve their cooking?

  00:35:22.967 --> 00:35:24.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>To improve their cooking?

  00:35:24.747 --> 00:35:27.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>I mean, there's nothing that universally fits in everything.

  00:35:27.587 --> 00:35:29.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, but it comes up more often than...

  00:35:30.567 --> 00:35:31.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>Kindness.

  00:35:31.987 --> 00:35:32.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>What?

  00:35:34.647 --> 00:35:37.527

  <v SPEAKER_3>Corny.

  00:35:37.827 --> 00:35:38.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>Just kidding.

  00:35:38.307 --> 00:35:40.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>A lot of times at meetings, I'm like, it needs acidity.

  00:35:40.967 --> 00:35:48.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>I often feel like people are using salt, but we want acidity, or sometimes you want bitterness and complexity or crunch, you know?

  00:35:53.747 --> 00:35:55.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>Certainly a lot of things miss acidity.

  00:35:55.127 --> 00:35:56.427

  <v SPEAKER_5>It's always been cool.

  00:35:56.447 --> 00:36:06.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>I know, but people were like, oh, if it's missing something, it's missing lemon juice, or yeah, acidity is the thing it's missing, which is often the case, but not always the case.

  00:36:06.307 --> 00:36:09.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, like, salt, I feel, is universal, it's almost always missing.

  00:36:09.187 --> 00:36:11.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>Acidity, there are dishes that don't need acidity, right?

  00:36:11.807 --> 00:36:17.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>And there are dishes that, I don't know, oftentimes a dish could use sweetness, but not all the time.

  00:36:17.447 --> 00:36:19.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't want an acidic or sweet mac and cheese.

  00:36:20.307 --> 00:36:24.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>Right, well, no, but, like, mac and cheese with, like, pickled jalapenos is good, right?

  00:36:24.167 --> 00:36:26.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's got acidity.

  00:36:28.107 --> 00:36:29.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't like hot pickles.

  00:36:29.487 --> 00:36:30.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's weird.

  00:36:30.107 --> 00:36:30.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, that's fine.

  00:36:30.847 --> 00:36:34.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>It can be, like, a warm bit of pickle buried in something delicious.

  00:36:34.867 --> 00:36:37.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>It has to be separate cold crisp on top.

  00:36:37.087 --> 00:37:03.047

  <v SPEAKER_2>But you know what, the answer, I think, is that if your food is missing something, like, you should think about, rather than, like, aromas, you should be thinking of the basic, like, sweet, salty, acidic, bitter, spicy, like, something that you sense on your tongue, something that you can still notice if you pinched your nose, because usually it's like a balance of something on your tongue, you know, and something that's going to give you sort of a more balanced and more full mouth feel.

  00:37:03.067 --> 00:37:04.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know how you feel about the word mouth feel.

  00:37:04.607 --> 00:37:05.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>A lot of people don't like the word mouth feel.

  00:37:07.207 --> 00:37:07.807

  <v SPEAKER_3>I don't know.

  00:37:08.147 --> 00:37:11.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's a lot of places I've worked, the word mouth feel was banned from...

  00:37:11.527 --> 00:37:12.087

  <v SPEAKER_3>Wow.

  00:37:12.447 --> 00:37:13.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>Wow.

  00:37:13.047 --> 00:37:14.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>I didn't know.

  00:37:14.427 --> 00:37:16.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>Anyhow, it gives you a more full mouth feel.

  00:37:16.307 --> 00:37:16.807

  <v SPEAKER_2>Whereas...

  00:37:16.827 --> 00:37:19.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>So generally salt though, you agree?

  00:37:19.067 --> 00:37:20.067

  <v SPEAKER_2>For sure salt.

  00:37:20.067 --> 00:37:24.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>But yeah, I think if you eat something and it's like, what's missing?

  00:37:24.687 --> 00:37:26.367

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's not going to be something like...

  00:37:27.227 --> 00:37:29.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't think it's generally going to be something like aromatic.

  00:37:29.707 --> 00:37:33.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's going to be more something that's like one of the basic senses that are off balance.

  00:37:34.087 --> 00:37:35.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's generally what I think.

  00:37:35.107 --> 00:37:37.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, salt or acid are usually the two biggest culprits.

  00:37:37.787 --> 00:37:40.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>So the Cheetos that I got in Canada today...

  00:37:44.007 --> 00:37:49.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>Last night, I did an event in Vancouver and somebody asked me if I would ever make homemade Cheetos and I said, absolutely not.

  00:37:49.927 --> 00:37:50.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's a perfect food.

  00:37:50.747 --> 00:37:51.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>Why would I ever?

  00:37:51.427 --> 00:37:52.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>I would never.

  00:37:52.507 --> 00:37:54.227

  <v SPEAKER_4>I would never.

  00:37:54.247 --> 00:38:00.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>And they told me that in Canada, there's a different kind of Cheeto and it's saltier and it's cheesier.

  00:38:00.987 --> 00:38:02.747

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I was like, I'm there.

  00:38:02.767 --> 00:38:04.947

  <v SPEAKER_6>And as I saw them in the airport...

  00:38:04.967 --> 00:38:07.527

  <v SPEAKER_2>Wait, I thought Cheetos advertised itself as literally the cheesiest.

  00:38:08.687 --> 00:38:11.947

  <v SPEAKER_3>They're going to have to take it up with the Canadians, they have different label laws.

  00:38:11.967 --> 00:38:13.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't know, maybe in Canada they can say things.

  00:38:14.087 --> 00:38:18.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>The person told me that they were saltier and cheesier and I was very excited and I got it back and I brought it.

  00:38:18.787 --> 00:38:26.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>I had opened it when I got to the hotel here and I told you earlier, I had like three and I think I'm going to be drinking water for the rest of my life.

  00:38:26.947 --> 00:38:29.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>It was so salty and I love salt.

  00:38:29.827 --> 00:38:33.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I was just thinking when you said that salt is the answer, I'm like, except for this one time.

  00:38:34.467 --> 00:38:38.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>I cannot, like I wanted to love them so much but the salt nearly killed me.

  00:38:38.547 --> 00:38:41.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>And you're going to ask me the brand and I'm going to say, I don't know, I took a picture of it on my phone.

  00:38:41.687 --> 00:38:42.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you still have some?

  00:38:42.747 --> 00:38:43.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>Did you?

  00:38:43.627 --> 00:38:44.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, the rest of the bag.

  00:38:46.707 --> 00:38:47.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>You should have brought them.

  00:38:47.727 --> 00:38:48.927

  <v SPEAKER_3>I know, I could have brought something.

  00:38:48.947 --> 00:38:50.507

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you have any remnant orange dust on your fingers?

  00:38:51.327 --> 00:39:07.807

  <v SPEAKER_6>No, what I had to use, you know in hotels they have the makeup and wash cloth that's black, that's what I had to use to wipe my hands because I didn't have a napkin.

  00:39:08.027 --> 00:39:09.087

  <v SPEAKER_6>Anyway, I'm fine.

  00:39:09.467 --> 00:39:19.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>Alright, so yeah, I think we're obligated to move on to viewer questions, to audience questions.

  00:39:20.067 --> 00:39:21.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>Alright, a couple here.

  00:39:21.227 --> 00:39:25.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>Alright, this is actually related to a question I wanted to ask you earlier.

  00:39:25.867 --> 00:39:27.167

  <v SPEAKER_2>So, this is from Amy Gooder.

  00:39:27.407 --> 00:39:33.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>How do you do all your amazing work in a small kitchen, which is part one, and part two?

  00:39:34.127 --> 00:39:35.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>We can get to part two after the first one.

  00:39:35.487 --> 00:39:36.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>How do you do everything in a small kitchen?

  00:39:37.227 --> 00:39:44.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>So my question for you actually was going to be like what your ideal kitchen workspace would be, like whether it's big or small.

  00:39:44.567 --> 00:39:46.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>You answer the basic question first and we'll get into it.

  00:39:46.467 --> 00:39:46.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't know.

  00:39:46.907 --> 00:39:47.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do you have a small kitchen?

  00:39:50.227 --> 00:39:50.967

  <v SPEAKER_2>It depends what standards are.

  00:39:50.987 --> 00:39:51.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>Not in New York small, yeah.

  00:39:52.387 --> 00:39:56.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>Not like you like suburban standards small but not like New York City small.

  00:39:56.547 --> 00:39:57.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's not small.

  00:39:57.127 --> 00:39:59.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>No, it's not big but it's not small.

  00:40:00.467 --> 00:40:01.367

  <v SPEAKER_3>I just do less.

  00:40:01.547 --> 00:40:02.047

  <v SPEAKER_3>I do less.

  00:40:02.067 --> 00:40:03.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>I do one thing at a time.

  00:40:03.087 --> 00:40:03.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't multitask.

  00:40:05.067 --> 00:40:06.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I just do less.

  00:40:08.207 --> 00:40:09.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>This is my life philosophy.

  00:40:09.327 --> 00:40:09.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do less.

  00:40:12.027 --> 00:40:13.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>I just do one thing at a time.

  00:40:13.307 --> 00:40:14.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>Just do one thing at well.

  00:40:14.487 --> 00:40:21.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I just work on one thing at a time and when I finish that dish I might work on another dish but all of my mistakes are made in the kitchen when I'm trying to work on two or three dishes at once.

  00:40:21.447 --> 00:40:22.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>So how do you do holidays?

  00:40:23.047 --> 00:40:23.567

  <v SPEAKER_2>One at a time?

  00:40:23.587 --> 00:40:25.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>You go to someone's house?

  00:40:25.467 --> 00:40:31.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>I get things to a pause point where maybe they just need to be fired or they just need to be reheated but I just do one thing at a time.

  00:40:32.707 --> 00:40:37.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>Unless it's like, okay, I need an onion for this dish, I'll try to chop all that.

  00:40:37.267 --> 00:40:39.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>Have you ever lived in a place with a bigger kitchen?

  00:40:40.787 --> 00:40:42.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>I mean my house growing up but I didn't cook much.

  00:40:43.527 --> 00:40:44.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>It wasn't that big.

  00:40:45.007 --> 00:40:45.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>So since you've been cooking.

  00:40:46.087 --> 00:40:47.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, pretty much I've always had a small kitchen.

  00:40:47.847 --> 00:40:49.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>So when people are like, what would you like to do with your kitchen?

  00:40:49.727 --> 00:40:50.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>What would be your dream kitchen?

  00:40:50.727 --> 00:40:52.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I'm like, I haven't actually thought about it that much.

  00:40:52.707 --> 00:40:54.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>Mostly it's just like a counter that doesn't wobble.

  00:40:55.647 --> 00:41:01.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>And like cabinets that I would choose so they made sense for what I want to put in them.

  00:41:01.467 --> 00:41:04.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>Mostly it's about choice, but I don't know, size.

  00:41:04.147 --> 00:41:10.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>I know I would be happy with a bigger kitchen, but I'm not sure that I'm unhappy without a bigger kitchen.

  00:41:10.487 --> 00:41:16.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>So for me, I grew up in New York and so we had a tiny New York galley kitchen.

  00:41:17.127 --> 00:41:32.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>Two people camped in there once, and then when we moved to the West Coast, to California at first, we were like, oh, this is a kitchen in California, and it's like you can walk around and you have to take like seven steps to get from the fridge to the counter and stuff.

  00:41:32.167 --> 00:41:33.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>And at first, you're like, oh, this is great.

  00:41:33.787 --> 00:41:36.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>And then you're like, oh, I have to walk around this much?

  00:41:37.007 --> 00:41:40.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>And I feel like it's just like a hassle to empty the dishwasher because I have to go to a different room.

  00:41:40.927 --> 00:41:52.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's like in New York, I can stand, it was like working in a restaurant, you can stand in one spot, like the the dish for like the cabinet for the containers is right, is on this side, I open it by like pulling the cabinet towards my hip and leaning over this way.

  00:41:52.047 --> 00:41:56.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's like, yeah, you learn where everything is and you don't really, it's very efficient.

  00:41:56.227 --> 00:41:59.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Also, remember restaurant kitchens, like each chef just have a spot.

  00:42:00.287 --> 00:42:01.327

  <v SPEAKER_5>They just have a spot.

  00:42:01.347 --> 00:42:03.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>They don't have an entire six counters.

  00:42:03.587 --> 00:42:07.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>Also, my theory is that most of the time when people have a bunch of counters, they just put stuff on them.

  00:42:07.887 --> 00:42:11.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>And the same way that whenever I have a clear surface, I cover it with like laundry that needs to be folded or something.

  00:42:13.107 --> 00:42:13.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, kids.

  00:42:13.847 --> 00:42:14.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I do it.

  00:42:14.587 --> 00:42:18.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I just mean like, you're going to get more appliances and you're going to leave them out.

  00:42:18.407 --> 00:42:22.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like I don't keep any appliances out because I just take them out as I need them.

  00:42:22.427 --> 00:42:28.647

  <v SPEAKER_2>So that goes into part two of the same question, which is what are some of your favorite tips for maximizing storage?

  00:42:32.187 --> 00:42:36.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>For maximizing storage, I don't know, I actually don't keep my dishes in the kitchen.

  00:42:36.207 --> 00:42:36.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's a little weird.

  00:42:37.027 --> 00:42:40.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>But we basically, something was going to have to leave the kitchen because there isn't enough space.

  00:42:41.087 --> 00:42:45.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>So we have a regular, we have like a beautiful china cabinet, but we keep our everyday dishes in it.

  00:42:45.267 --> 00:42:48.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>And that's out in like the living room, like where we eat.

  00:42:48.307 --> 00:42:50.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I don't know, it just works for me.

  00:42:50.407 --> 00:42:54.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I feel like if you're going to have something that's going to be a display piece, I don't want it to be the pantry.

  00:42:54.187 --> 00:42:54.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'd rather list it.

  00:42:54.887 --> 00:42:57.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>So your answer is basically just find another, find more storage.

  00:42:58.887 --> 00:43:01.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>I also think a really big thing is like keep your counters clear.

  00:43:02.067 --> 00:43:08.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>I mean, the thing is like people can have a giant kitchen, but if you've got stuff all over the corners, you don't actually have usable space.

  00:43:08.227 --> 00:43:11.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I really like, there's so many appliances on most people's counters.

  00:43:11.587 --> 00:43:12.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>I get it.

  00:43:12.047 --> 00:43:14.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>So what I have is this, I have shelves underneath.

  00:43:14.527 --> 00:43:22.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I have like the KitchenAid and the Vitamix and I have the food processor and I, yes, you do have to like heave them up, but like I just take them out as I need them and...

  00:43:22.047 --> 00:43:23.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>Have you ever seen those?

  00:43:23.167 --> 00:43:24.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I've seen those.

  00:43:24.747 --> 00:43:28.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, maybe I should create a Pinterest board or something for like my one day kitchen.

  00:43:28.947 --> 00:43:30.327

  <v SPEAKER_2>Those cool KitchenAid stands that just go, pshh.

  00:43:30.747 --> 00:43:33.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>But then I'm like, I think it would just annoy me.

  00:43:33.467 --> 00:43:34.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't know.

  00:43:34.047 --> 00:43:38.807

  <v SPEAKER_2>I have one friend who has one of those and I was very envious, but definitely don't want it in my kitchen.

  00:43:39.627 --> 00:43:41.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>And it just goes up and it goes right on the counter, right?

  00:43:41.827 --> 00:43:46.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>It creates its own counter that comes up to your counter.

  00:43:48.007 --> 00:43:48.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think that's the point.

  00:43:49.287 --> 00:43:53.547

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, so I have seen it, I don't have it, I've never thought about it.

  00:43:54.707 --> 00:43:57.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>My storage maximizing space would be two things.

  00:43:57.927 --> 00:44:07.087

  <v SPEAKER_2>First of all, get rid of glass bowls, use nesting aluminum or stainless steel, sorry, use nesting stainless steel bowls that you get like in Chinatown for a couple bucks.

  00:44:07.467 --> 00:44:11.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>You can get like 50 bowls that just all nest together and take up the space of one bowl.

  00:44:12.007 --> 00:44:13.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>Everything in my kitchen is glass.

  00:44:13.547 --> 00:44:15.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>Everything is glass.

  00:44:16.407 --> 00:44:18.527

  <v SPEAKER_2>Why do you use glass?

  00:44:18.647 --> 00:44:20.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>I like a lack of visual clutter.

  00:44:20.747 --> 00:44:26.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>Even though there's a lot of stuff in the kitchen, you don't feel visually overwhelmed by it.

  00:44:26.647 --> 00:44:37.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>Also, I do everything with sealed glass jars for dry goods just because it's been like 16 years in two apartments since I once had pantry weevils, but that's it.

  00:44:37.427 --> 00:44:41.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like I will never, everything's in a sealed jar forever.

  00:44:41.987 --> 00:44:44.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>If you bring something home, it's not going to get into something else.

  00:44:45.127 --> 00:44:47.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>And if it's, you know, so if you keep everything sealed and I like...

  00:44:47.787 --> 00:44:48.967

  <v SPEAKER_2>What about mixing bowls though?

  00:44:49.467 --> 00:44:49.887

  <v SPEAKER_4>Glass.

  00:44:50.607 --> 00:44:51.507

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, but why?

  00:44:51.687 --> 00:44:52.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>Why glass over?

  00:44:52.607 --> 00:44:54.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>I just like being able to see everything.

  00:44:55.147 --> 00:44:59.347

  <v SPEAKER_4>Everything's small and crowded, so I need glass so it feels more open.

  00:44:59.867 --> 00:45:04.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>Also like everything's white in my apartment too, not everything, but I tend to like really like colors for the same reason.

  00:45:04.847 --> 00:45:17.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>So at Cooks Illustrated, when we did the TV show there, America's Test Kitchen, so at least back then, part of the reason why glass bowl, why they use glass bowls is because you can see what's inside them on camera.

  00:45:17.487 --> 00:45:29.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>But what happens is every year for the TV show, behind the scenes, you have to go through all the bowls and find the ones that like look nice enough for TV and like 80% of them have like chips in them, which means that like there's like chips of glass.

  00:45:29.707 --> 00:45:30.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>You know, have you checked all your bowls?

  00:45:31.387 --> 00:45:32.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>There's no chips.

  00:45:32.187 --> 00:45:32.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>There's no chips.

  00:45:32.647 --> 00:45:33.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>There's no chips.

  00:45:34.347 --> 00:45:35.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>I feel like they work really well.

  00:45:35.987 --> 00:45:37.587

  <v SPEAKER_6>I do have a couple of big metal bowls.

  00:45:37.607 --> 00:45:49.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>If I'm like stir frying or something and I have like six ingredients to add, I just have like a stack of little metal bowls, but I'll drop them on my walk and then like fling them across which is to my sink, which is seven steps away.

  00:45:50.967 --> 00:45:53.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>I mean, nobody should be expecting you to take seven steps just to put something in the sink.

  00:45:56.667 --> 00:45:57.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, you can't fling it.

  00:45:57.727 --> 00:46:05.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yes, I mean, glass does break, but I don't know, I think, like, well, but metal's going to dent, so it won't be broken, but it'll be annoying in other ways.

  00:46:07.347 --> 00:46:08.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>Listen, we all have our things.

  00:46:10.147 --> 00:46:19.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>My other tip was for storage containers that I use, and I think most, like, people who've worked in restaurants do this also, but I use, yeah, I use, like, stackable deli containers.

  00:46:19.247 --> 00:46:20.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, Cambros are the big ones.

  00:46:20.627 --> 00:46:33.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I use some of those too, but for, like, regular portion sizes, for, like, a cup or, like, a pint or a quart of leftovers, I use deli containers that have lids that fit all three, you know, whatever size you have, the same lid fits, so you don't have to, like, go digging around.

  00:46:33.727 --> 00:46:35.547

  <v SPEAKER_2>And they also nest and stack really small.

  00:46:35.667 --> 00:46:39.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like, for me, it's like, I want everything to nest and stack very small.

  00:46:39.127 --> 00:46:39.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>Nesting and stacking.

  00:46:39.667 --> 00:46:40.207

  <v SPEAKER_2>Nesting and stacking.

  00:46:40.227 --> 00:46:47.667

  <v SPEAKER_4>So you would, everybody, many people are very triggered by my container storage, but I want the lid on each container, and for them to be stacked, I don't nest them.

  00:46:47.887 --> 00:46:50.067

  <v SPEAKER_4>I will not go looking around for a lid.

  00:46:50.427 --> 00:46:55.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>They always end up with, like, a different number, and so I have to, everything, it's like boxes stacked.

  00:46:55.927 --> 00:46:57.427

  <v SPEAKER_3>It's very triggering for people.

  00:46:57.447 --> 00:47:01.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>You've got tips for how to use up more space in your kitchen if you've got too much.

  00:47:01.487 --> 00:47:04.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm basically doing the opposite of what you're supposed to do.

  00:47:04.207 --> 00:47:05.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm opinionated.

  00:47:06.387 --> 00:47:09.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>I have opinions on, like, loading dishwashers and everything.

  00:47:09.367 --> 00:47:16.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>My actual opinion on loading the dishwasher is that if you have strong opinions on how a dishwasher should be loaded, congratulations, you're the dishwasher loader now.

  00:47:16.987 --> 00:47:17.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm out.

  00:47:19.367 --> 00:47:21.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think it's a beautiful thing for somebody else to do.

  00:47:25.007 --> 00:47:29.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>All right, I'm going to go back and forth between things I'm curious about and things the audience is also curious about.

  00:47:29.767 --> 00:47:32.927

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'll also try to Venn diagram this into things that we're both curious about.

  00:47:32.947 --> 00:47:33.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay.

  00:47:34.127 --> 00:47:35.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>So many Venn diagrams.

  00:47:35.667 --> 00:47:36.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>All right.

  00:47:36.787 --> 00:47:40.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>What is your most frequent meal when the kids are crazy and time is short?

  00:47:40.127 --> 00:47:49.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>I feel like we default to pasta a lot, or we do, but these days I've been really into versions of chicken and rice.

  00:47:49.307 --> 00:47:56.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>Where you just kind of like the chicken rice with buttered onions on the side, but I have like probably 50 other versions of it I haven't published yet.

  00:47:56.387 --> 00:48:04.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>Where you basically just start by browning chicken pieces and then you might saute some aromatics and vegetables, add the dry rice broth and then finish cooking them together.

  00:48:04.407 --> 00:48:07.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>I feel like we do that a lot, like over the last few years.

  00:48:07.227 --> 00:48:11.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>You had a recent recipe that's like kind of like caramelized onions?

  00:48:11.027 --> 00:48:12.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, it was like buttered onions.

  00:48:12.107 --> 00:48:13.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're like, oh, it's caramelized.

  00:48:13.207 --> 00:48:15.227

  <v SPEAKER_4>If you say caramelized, people are like, oh, that's good.

  00:48:15.247 --> 00:48:18.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>People are like, Kenji says that onions can't be caramelized unless they're 90 minutes.

  00:48:23.267 --> 00:48:24.667

  <v SPEAKER_6>It's just, it's your followers.

  00:48:27.067 --> 00:48:28.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>I need to start caramelizing the onions today.

  00:48:28.727 --> 00:48:29.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, no, it's not gonna happen.

  00:48:29.787 --> 00:48:30.987

  <v SPEAKER_6>So these are a little quicker.

  00:48:31.007 --> 00:48:33.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>You kind of get them a little bit there and then you speed it up.

  00:48:33.507 --> 00:48:34.547

  <v SPEAKER_4>You get some color on them.

  00:48:34.567 --> 00:48:35.827

  <v SPEAKER_6>But yeah, so that's just a version.

  00:48:35.847 --> 00:48:37.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I feel like we do stuff like that a lot.

  00:48:37.467 --> 00:48:40.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>And it's nice because you're eating chicken and not another kind of meat.

  00:48:41.107 --> 00:48:42.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>I feel like the leftovers are really good.

  00:48:43.967 --> 00:48:45.047

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you do vegetables as well?

  00:48:45.267 --> 00:48:48.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>I sometimes put a vegetable in, but depending on what it is...

  00:48:49.127 --> 00:48:52.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>Your family is not, they're not mixers, right?

  00:48:52.027 --> 00:48:53.967

  <v SPEAKER_2>You can't put broccoli in the rice or they freak out?

  00:48:53.987 --> 00:49:00.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh my God, the time I put broccoli in mac and cheese, you would have thought I kicked a puppy or something.

  00:49:00.267 --> 00:49:06.627

  <v SPEAKER_4>The betrayal they felt, they like mac and cheese and they like broccoli, but when I put it together, I actually ruined both things.

  00:49:07.267 --> 00:49:08.847

  <v SPEAKER_4>And so I don't do that anymore.

  00:49:08.867 --> 00:49:10.687

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's like when I made Alicia a tuna and peanut butter sandwich.

  00:49:12.947 --> 00:49:13.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I keep it separate.

  00:49:13.987 --> 00:49:20.167

  <v SPEAKER_4>My theory is actually you eat more broccoli outside of it anyway, because you would probably eat a whole bowl versus just a few florets that you would tuck in there.

  00:49:20.547 --> 00:49:23.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I'm not the one who puts peas in my macaroni and cheese.

  00:49:24.487 --> 00:49:26.667

  <v SPEAKER_2>My kids like peas in most things.

  00:49:26.687 --> 00:49:27.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>I like peas in a lot of things.

  00:49:28.547 --> 00:49:30.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, that's just so interesting.

  00:49:34.427 --> 00:49:36.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>Peas in macaroni and cheese is normal, right?

  00:49:37.127 --> 00:49:37.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>Really?

  00:49:37.407 --> 00:49:40.167

  <v SPEAKER_3>Well, it's not the first time I've been the odd one.

  00:49:41.447 --> 00:49:43.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I would say those are two things that go in heavy rotation.

  00:49:43.807 --> 00:49:49.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>But versions of that, like maybe we're craving fried rice and I'll do something with soy sauce, ginger, garlic, scallions and stuff like that.

  00:49:50.427 --> 00:49:53.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>Or we're craving something more burrito-ish.

  00:49:53.747 --> 00:49:56.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I might do salsa, avocado, black beans, cheese.

  00:49:57.187 --> 00:49:59.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>So there's a lot of different versions that we make.

  00:49:59.827 --> 00:50:00.927

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do a whole bucket of chicken rice.

  00:50:00.947 --> 00:50:03.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>You're mentioning a lot of ingredients outside your culture here.

  00:50:04.307 --> 00:50:09.707

  <v SPEAKER_3>I didn't say there were authentic versions of any of these things.

  00:50:10.007 --> 00:50:12.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you read your old work, like your old writing?

  00:50:12.667 --> 00:50:12.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.

  00:50:13.407 --> 00:50:17.767

  <v SPEAKER_3>And I'm so sorry I put you guys through that all those years ago.

  00:50:17.767 --> 00:50:19.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, so that's part of my question.

  00:50:19.407 --> 00:50:21.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you read it in cringe or do you read it...

  00:50:21.987 --> 00:50:25.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>So are there parts where you read it like, oh, I used to be better at that?

  00:50:25.887 --> 00:50:27.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>I have moments of both.

  00:50:27.727 --> 00:50:30.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>And are there parts where you're like, oh my god, I can't believe I wrote that?

  00:50:30.667 --> 00:50:32.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>I used to be a lot funnier, I think.

  00:50:32.127 --> 00:50:33.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I don't mean that I used to...

  00:50:33.507 --> 00:50:34.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, no, no, it's definitely a mix.

  00:50:34.747 --> 00:50:35.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>I have that same feeling.

  00:50:36.107 --> 00:50:37.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I think there's like a mix of things.

  00:50:37.547 --> 00:50:41.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I also think very early on, I had no idea what I was doing.

  00:50:41.027 --> 00:50:44.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>I mean, I know I've made it clear that I still don't, but I especially didn't know...

  00:50:44.347 --> 00:50:45.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Writing-wise or cooking-wise?

  00:50:45.767 --> 00:50:48.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>I didn't know who I was talking to, where this was gonna go.

  00:50:48.127 --> 00:50:50.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>I thought it was gonna last six months or a year.

  00:50:50.067 --> 00:50:53.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>Like, I didn't expect it to ever be something that I was still doing now.

  00:50:53.487 --> 00:50:55.827

  <v SPEAKER_4>I might have approached it differently, perhaps like a professional.

  00:50:58.627 --> 00:50:59.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I was just...

  00:50:59.627 --> 00:51:06.127

  <v SPEAKER_4>So I think there was definitely that sense of it, and I didn't have a sense of what a good head note would be, either, so I was just talking.

  00:51:06.727 --> 00:51:12.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>What are the things you do now that you think you'll be, I don't know, particularly proud of?

  00:51:13.527 --> 00:51:14.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>When did you start?

  00:51:14.307 --> 00:51:15.787

  <v SPEAKER_2>I started in 2006.

  00:51:15.807 --> 00:51:16.487

  <v SPEAKER_2>How many years is it?

  00:51:16.507 --> 00:51:17.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>17 years?

  00:51:17.207 --> 00:51:19.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>17, wow.

  00:51:19.427 --> 00:51:21.427

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's crazy, because I actually have an aged doll.

  00:51:21.907 --> 00:51:22.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I know.

  00:51:22.627 --> 00:51:25.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>So 17 years from now when you're in your mid-30s.

  00:51:27.187 --> 00:51:29.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>What are you gonna be proud of that you're doing right now?

  00:51:29.047 --> 00:51:29.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, my God.

  00:51:29.887 --> 00:51:31.807

  <v SPEAKER_4>Hopefully, I'll be proud of our podcast.

  00:51:32.147 --> 00:51:35.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>Hopefully, I'll be proud of my books.

  00:51:36.047 --> 00:51:39.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>Hopefully, I'll be proud of these recipes and still be using them.

  00:51:39.267 --> 00:51:45.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>I would be happiest if they were useful to other people, because I will probably be on to like 100 recipes from now.

  00:51:45.267 --> 00:51:46.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>I get bored easily.

  00:51:46.767 --> 00:51:48.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>But if other people are still making them, it makes me happy.

  00:51:49.807 --> 00:51:50.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>How about you, Kenji?

  00:51:55.327 --> 00:51:57.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>In 17 years, I want a kid who will play music with me.

  00:52:00.487 --> 00:52:03.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>Which I have right now, but in 17 years, they better still be doing it.

  00:52:03.727 --> 00:52:04.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's awesome.

  00:52:04.327 --> 00:52:05.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I guess similar.

  00:52:05.407 --> 00:52:17.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think the nicest feedback is always when people are like, oh, I made your recipe for my family, or I made your recipe for this special person, and it affected my life in this way.

  00:52:17.047 --> 00:52:17.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>And that's always nice.

  00:52:18.007 --> 00:52:20.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>Crazy to think of your little children going off.

  00:52:21.067 --> 00:52:22.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>Your recipe children.

  00:52:22.787 --> 00:52:23.767

  <v SPEAKER_4>Your recipe children.

  00:52:23.787 --> 00:52:27.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>Your children aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

  00:52:27.327 --> 00:52:29.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, third of the way to college already.

  00:52:29.427 --> 00:52:30.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>I know.

  00:52:30.107 --> 00:52:33.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>My son is 14, so I actually see it.

  00:52:33.547 --> 00:52:36.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's crazy how close it is, because he was just born.

  00:52:36.707 --> 00:52:39.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>And he's still kind of just...

  00:52:39.227 --> 00:52:40.047

  <v SPEAKER_4>I can't make fun of him.

  00:52:40.067 --> 00:52:41.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>That would be really rude.

  00:52:41.347 --> 00:52:43.947

  <v SPEAKER_3>I would tease him, but he's 14, so we're not going to tease 14-year-olds.

  00:52:43.967 --> 00:52:44.527

  <v SPEAKER_4>We don't do that.

  00:52:44.547 --> 00:52:53.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>Are there any recipes that you wrote that you ended up not publishing because they turned out differently from how you expected them to?

  00:52:53.967 --> 00:52:59.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Well, I know for you, you always have a bunch of recipes that you're refining and working on, right?

  00:52:59.747 --> 00:53:03.907

  <v SPEAKER_2>But are there any that you're just like, I'm not going to screw that.

  00:53:03.927 --> 00:53:05.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm never going to do a croissant recipe.

  00:53:05.967 --> 00:53:07.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>I've made croissants.

  00:53:07.147 --> 00:53:14.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>I've made them as perfectly as a beginner croissant maker at home can make them, and there's just no reason for me to do that.

  00:53:14.947 --> 00:53:21.347

  <v SPEAKER_2>But don't you think there are people at home who would be curious about how to make a croissant as perfectly as a home baker can make a croissant?

  00:53:21.367 --> 00:53:24.227

  <v SPEAKER_4>And usually that pulls me along and it gets me to get it out the door.

  00:53:24.247 --> 00:53:27.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>But no, I just don't feel like any of them are...

  00:53:27.107 --> 00:53:29.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>First of all, you're going to have to make a minimum of 12.

  00:53:29.787 --> 00:53:33.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I don't know how big your family is, but they're not good on the second day.

  00:53:33.587 --> 00:53:37.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>So you're either going to eat 12 croissants on the first day, which weren't even great croissants.

  00:53:37.167 --> 00:53:38.507

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're going to be good croissants.

  00:53:38.527 --> 00:53:40.007

  <v SPEAKER_4>They might even be croissants you're proud of.

  00:53:40.227 --> 00:53:45.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I also have a lot of very good bakeries within very few blocks of my apartment.

  00:53:45.767 --> 00:53:53.027

  <v SPEAKER_4>And so it's just really hard to motivate to make a croissant when I could buy a warm one made by some of the best in the city.

  00:53:53.587 --> 00:53:55.747

  <v SPEAKER_2>Was that a recipe you were actively pursuing?

  00:53:55.867 --> 00:53:57.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>I was thinking it was going to happen.

  00:53:57.387 --> 00:53:58.967

  <v SPEAKER_4>I was like, we're just going to do this.

  00:53:58.987 --> 00:54:02.787

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm going to cut through the bullshit and try to make it happen.

  00:54:02.807 --> 00:54:04.147

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, they have to be complicated.

  00:54:04.167 --> 00:54:05.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's why they're good.

  00:54:05.627 --> 00:54:07.567

  <v SPEAKER_4>You want to make a good one, it's going to have to be complicated.

  00:54:07.587 --> 00:54:08.427

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that's what you find.

  00:54:08.447 --> 00:54:11.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>There's some things that you just can't, there's no hacking it.

  00:54:12.067 --> 00:54:13.227

  <v SPEAKER_2>You just got to practice it.

  00:54:13.967 --> 00:54:14.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's it.

  00:54:14.427 --> 00:54:27.907

  <v SPEAKER_4>I have been working on, just slowly, because I work on it like once a year, which is not very helpful for a publication schedule, but I have been working on a much simpler bagel recipe, and I do make those once in a while, even though there's also no reason for me to make bagels in New York.

  00:54:28.687 --> 00:54:29.527

  <v SPEAKER_2>A great bagel.

  00:54:29.547 --> 00:54:30.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, yeah.

  00:54:30.207 --> 00:54:31.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>Have you tried Stella's?

  00:54:32.747 --> 00:54:33.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>No, I haven't.

  00:54:33.667 --> 00:54:34.347

  <v SPEAKER_2>Stella Parks, who was...

  00:54:34.367 --> 00:54:36.207

  <v SPEAKER_4>I thought you were going to ask me if I had pop-up bagels.

  00:54:36.227 --> 00:54:37.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, yes, I love them.

  00:54:37.867 --> 00:54:38.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, no, no, no.

  00:54:38.787 --> 00:54:40.947

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I had pop-up bagels last time I was in New York.

  00:54:41.007 --> 00:54:42.607

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think they are very good.

  00:54:42.827 --> 00:54:45.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>They're very different from what I expect a bagel to be, but they're also very good.

  00:54:45.847 --> 00:54:46.407

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're very light.

  00:54:46.427 --> 00:54:47.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, they're very light and crusty.

  00:54:50.467 --> 00:54:51.467

  <v SPEAKER_4>I haven't made Stella's recipe.

  00:54:51.487 --> 00:54:52.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>Stella Parks' recipe is great.

  00:54:52.847 --> 00:54:53.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm going to try it.

  00:54:53.787 --> 00:54:59.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>But it's also like a New York bagel recipe by someone who didn't grow up in New York.

  00:54:59.147 --> 00:55:05.247

  <v SPEAKER_2>So in that sense, it's not quite what I expect it to be, but it's like...

  00:55:05.427 --> 00:55:06.647

  <v SPEAKER_2>So she calls them magic bagels.

  00:55:06.667 --> 00:55:15.107

  <v SPEAKER_2>It starts with a tangzhong, like a cooked roux that you add to the dough to make it retain moisture a little better.

  00:55:15.127 --> 00:55:15.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>What's that?

  00:55:15.627 --> 00:55:21.387

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm sure it would have a great texture, because a lot of what's missing in bagel recipes at home I think is that chew.

  00:55:21.947 --> 00:55:23.247

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's the chew.

  00:55:23.367 --> 00:55:26.307

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I guess it's the chew.

  00:55:26.327 --> 00:55:34.627

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think her goal was that most bagels, if you let them sit for half an hour, they're just not very good anymore, right?

  00:55:35.467 --> 00:55:36.187

  <v SPEAKER_2>They're very different.

  00:55:36.327 --> 00:55:40.027

  <v SPEAKER_2>They're very different outside the oven, even within the first...

  00:55:40.047 --> 00:55:46.147

  <v SPEAKER_2>More than most other breads, if you let them sit outside the oven too much, they decrease in quality.

  00:55:46.287 --> 00:55:47.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>Cut or uncut?

  00:55:47.307 --> 00:55:50.687

  <v SPEAKER_4>Because I feel like when they're not cut open, they're still pretty good for at least a day.

  00:55:50.707 --> 00:55:57.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's when you open them and you expose their innards to the elements of the earth that...

  00:55:57.827 --> 00:56:01.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>For me, it's not to do with the dryness, it's more the staleness.

  00:56:01.947 --> 00:56:08.387

  <v SPEAKER_2>If a bagel is appropriately chewy and dense, then by a couple hours in, it's really dense.

  00:56:08.447 --> 00:56:10.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>You can revive it by heating it up again.

  00:56:10.147 --> 00:56:11.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

  00:56:12.067 --> 00:56:13.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>We're going to have to have a bagel episode.

  00:56:14.187 --> 00:56:17.267

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think you can get a good 20 hours out of a fresh bagel.

  00:56:18.487 --> 00:56:19.587

  <v SPEAKER_2>20 hours.

  00:56:22.767 --> 00:56:23.867

  <v SPEAKER_4>This is what we're...

  00:56:24.027 --> 00:56:25.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>We'll go on these tantoms.

  00:56:26.927 --> 00:56:28.727

  <v SPEAKER_2>We might have different criteria from what makes a good bagel.

  00:56:29.687 --> 00:56:30.547

  <v SPEAKER_2>Do you have...

  00:56:30.607 --> 00:56:36.447

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, do you have what you believe is an underrated recipe or two in your collection via your blog or your books that you wish got more love?

  00:56:36.567 --> 00:56:38.187

  <v SPEAKER_4>An underrated recipe?

  00:56:38.207 --> 00:56:39.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh my God.

  00:56:39.487 --> 00:56:41.547

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, I always have ones at the top of my head and not right now.

  00:56:41.567 --> 00:56:43.767

  <v SPEAKER_2>The kid that you wish had more friends at school.

  00:56:45.187 --> 00:56:48.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>I mean, there are things that I love that other people are just not going to.

  00:56:48.367 --> 00:56:52.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>I mean, I know some people like celery and fennel, but most people do not.

  00:56:52.307 --> 00:56:54.727

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I love them enough for all of us, so that's okay.

  00:56:55.127 --> 00:56:55.947

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm trying to think.

  00:56:57.307 --> 00:56:59.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>How about for you, while I ponder that?

  00:56:59.307 --> 00:57:04.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>Do you have recipes that you feel like never got the love and attention that they deserved from the public, the adoration?

  00:57:04.727 --> 00:57:10.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>I feel like, no, all of my recipes go viral on Kenji.

  00:57:10.307 --> 00:57:12.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>Um, I don't know.

  00:57:12.887 --> 00:57:17.827

  <v SPEAKER_2>I try not to look too much at the numbers, you know?

  00:57:17.847 --> 00:57:21.087

  <v SPEAKER_4>I just mean like a recipe you'll mention and people will be like, oh, I didn't know you had a recipe for that.

  00:57:21.107 --> 00:57:22.287

  <v SPEAKER_3>You're like, I do have a recipe.

  00:57:22.307 --> 00:57:23.327

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yes, thank you, I do.

  00:57:24.307 --> 00:57:24.867

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

  00:57:24.907 --> 00:57:25.887

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I probably do.

  00:57:25.907 --> 00:57:27.847

  <v SPEAKER_2>I just can't, I'm bad at thinking of things on the spot.

  00:57:27.867 --> 00:57:31.307

  <v SPEAKER_4>I know, I'm so bad at thinking of things on the spot.

  00:57:31.327 --> 00:57:39.247

  <v SPEAKER_4>Um, there's definitely some recipes way back in my archives that I think are fantastic, but they have like, you know, the kind of photos you guys would let me get away with in 2007.

  00:57:39.267 --> 00:57:50.227

  <v SPEAKER_4>And I'm working on, you know, we're working on updates, and so one by one I kind of try to bring those back to life by making them, you know, more palatable for the eyes than they are currently.

  00:57:51.047 --> 00:57:53.007

  <v SPEAKER_2>I wanted to, so we don't have too much time left.

  00:57:53.247 --> 00:57:55.507

  <v SPEAKER_2>I had a bit I wanted to ask you about.

  00:57:55.527 --> 00:57:56.987

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's a series of rapid fire questions.

  00:57:57.007 --> 00:57:57.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay, we're ready.

  00:57:58.307 --> 00:58:01.707

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm calling this segment horizontal or diagonal.

  00:58:05.207 --> 00:58:07.127

  <v SPEAKER_2>I have no idea what you're talking about.

  00:58:07.147 --> 00:58:30.987

  <v SPEAKER_4>What Kenji is referencing is, I think it's not this past fall, but the fall before, you know, it was the first cool, crisp day in New York, and I made cream of tomato soup, and I made grilled cheese sandwiches, and I made a little video, you know, to get people excited about it, and at the very end, I take the stack of sandwiches and I cut them one by one in half the way I've always cut sandwiches in half, and it set off.

  00:58:32.287 --> 00:58:34.227

  <v SPEAKER_2>Wait, wait, wait, wait.

  00:58:34.247 --> 00:58:35.287

  <v SPEAKER_2>Which way did you cut them?

  00:58:35.307 --> 00:58:39.707

  <v SPEAKER_4>I cut like a normal, sane person.

  00:58:40.207 --> 00:58:42.647

  <v SPEAKER_4>I cut grilled cheese sandwiches in half.

  00:58:43.747 --> 00:58:54.287

  <v SPEAKER_4>The short way, like the shortest distance between one side and another is the correct way to cut something, because you're trying to keep the insides of the sandwich inside and so a smaller cut.

  00:58:55.367 --> 00:58:58.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>The comments were, we called it sandwich gate.

  00:58:58.587 --> 00:59:00.607

  <v SPEAKER_4>I have never seen anything like it.

  00:59:00.607 --> 00:59:02.487

  <v SPEAKER_4>It was on like evening news shows.

  00:59:02.487 --> 00:59:03.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm not kidding.

  00:59:03.767 --> 00:59:06.367

  <v SPEAKER_4>There were articles about it in the Washington Post.

  00:59:07.267 --> 00:59:12.447

  <v SPEAKER_4>The feelings people have about how sandwiches are cut are hilarious.

  00:59:12.467 --> 00:59:18.587

  <v SPEAKER_4>People were like, I was enjoying it so much, and they were like, I felt like you ripped my heart out.

  00:59:19.687 --> 00:59:21.107

  <v SPEAKER_4>It was like a screeching sound.

  00:59:22.687 --> 00:59:27.467

  <v SPEAKER_2>Can we do like by volume here, like who cuts their sandwiches in rectangles?

  00:59:33.277 --> 00:59:35.297

  <v SPEAKER_2>And who cuts their sandwiches in triangles?

  00:59:39.717 --> 00:59:42.197

  <v SPEAKER_2>It could just be that triangle cutters are louder.

  00:59:42.217 --> 00:59:43.377

  <v SPEAKER_4>I would die on this hell, though.

  00:59:43.397 --> 00:59:45.237

  <v SPEAKER_4>Most things, I'm like, you guys are probably right.

  00:59:45.257 --> 00:59:46.197

  <v SPEAKER_4>I really do see your point.

  00:59:46.217 --> 00:59:47.857

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm like, you guys are just wrong.

  00:59:48.097 --> 00:59:51.057

  <v SPEAKER_4>But the funniest thing, I got the best comments for like a month.

  00:59:51.437 --> 00:59:59.277

  <v SPEAKER_4>Everyone was sending me the funniest notes where they were explaining that, actually, some sandwiches can be cut that way, but grilled cheese always has to be on the diagonal.

  00:59:59.737 --> 01:00:01.677

  <v SPEAKER_6>That's the, yes, this is all of you.

  01:00:03.837 --> 01:00:05.537

  <v SPEAKER_2>Grilled cheese definitely has to be on the diagonal.

  01:00:05.597 --> 01:00:09.897

  <v SPEAKER_2>So square sandwiches are acceptable if they're cold sandwiches and they're going into like a lunchbox.

  01:00:10.097 --> 01:00:10.477

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's okay.

  01:00:10.497 --> 01:00:11.317

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's what I'm thinking of.

  01:00:11.337 --> 01:00:12.377

  <v SPEAKER_5>You're cutting it so it fits.

  01:00:12.397 --> 01:00:19.397

  <v SPEAKER_2>Or if you're putting it in like a bento box where you turn them on their side so the cut side of the filling faces up and the bento only fits them horizontally, then that's okay.

  01:00:19.417 --> 01:00:21.157

  <v SPEAKER_4>I didn't have a, we're not that fancy.

  01:00:22.457 --> 01:00:25.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>All right, so the bit is called horizontal or diagonal.

  01:00:25.357 --> 01:00:25.817

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay.

  01:00:26.317 --> 01:00:29.017

  <v SPEAKER_2>So I'm gonna give you a series of statements.

  01:00:29.437 --> 01:00:29.677

  <v SPEAKER_4>Okay.

  01:00:29.757 --> 01:00:32.637

  <v SPEAKER_2>If you agree with the statement, you say horizontal.

  01:00:33.517 --> 01:00:36.237

  <v SPEAKER_2>If you disagree with the statement, you say diagonal.

  01:00:36.577 --> 01:00:39.057

  <v SPEAKER_2>And just as a hint, the answer is always diagonal.

  01:00:41.477 --> 01:00:43.877

  <v SPEAKER_2>But you can give whatever answer you want, but the answer is always diagonal.

  01:00:45.017 --> 01:00:46.017

  <v SPEAKER_2>There's gonna be 10 of them.

  01:00:46.677 --> 01:00:53.097

  <v SPEAKER_2>If you do choose horizontal for any of them, you can, up to three times, you can choose to add a clarifying remark.

  01:00:53.117 --> 01:00:56.837

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't think we can get through a minute without making a clarifying remark.

  01:00:58.097 --> 01:00:59.317

  <v SPEAKER_2>Otherwise, you just gotta go, okay?

  01:00:59.657 --> 01:01:00.037

  <v SPEAKER_2>All right.

  01:01:00.977 --> 01:01:04.837

  <v SPEAKER_2>American cheese, the time and place are never and nowhere.

  01:01:06.157 --> 01:01:07.257

  <v SPEAKER_2>Horizontal or diagonal?

  01:01:08.397 --> 01:01:09.077

  <v SPEAKER_4>Diagonal.

  01:01:09.657 --> 01:01:10.057

  <v SPEAKER_4>Good, all right.

  01:01:11.757 --> 01:01:16.477

  <v SPEAKER_2>Pasta should never, ever be served just with a ladle of sauce on top.

  01:01:17.277 --> 01:01:17.917

  <v SPEAKER_4>Diagonal.

  01:01:18.317 --> 01:01:19.017

  <v SPEAKER_2>Diagonal, okay.

  01:01:20.137 --> 01:01:21.797

  <v SPEAKER_4>Wait, no, horizontal.

  01:01:23.277 --> 01:01:23.857

  <v SPEAKER_4>Horizontal.

  01:01:24.677 --> 01:01:25.537

  <v SPEAKER_2>Horizontal, okay.

  01:01:25.557 --> 01:01:27.237

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, all right, do you want to clarify?

  01:01:27.837 --> 01:01:28.317

  <v SPEAKER_2>Or not?

  01:01:28.557 --> 01:01:29.997

  <v SPEAKER_4>The sauce has to be dispersed.

  01:01:30.517 --> 01:01:30.977

  <v SPEAKER_4>It has to be.

  01:01:30.997 --> 01:01:31.937

  <v SPEAKER_4>It has to be.

  01:01:32.097 --> 01:01:33.657

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's way better, you're missing out.

  01:01:34.157 --> 01:01:36.677

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, what about if your four-year-old asked for it just on top?

  01:01:36.937 --> 01:01:37.757

  <v SPEAKER_4>Tell them they're wrong.

  01:01:37.777 --> 01:01:39.037

  <v SPEAKER_2>Pineapple, never on pizza.

  01:01:41.777 --> 01:01:43.577

  <v SPEAKER_2>Pineapple, never on pizza.

  01:01:43.597 --> 01:01:44.397

  <v SPEAKER_2>Diagonal.

  01:01:44.417 --> 01:01:48.357

  <v SPEAKER_4>Never on my pizza, but I understand there are people who like it and I respect differences.

  01:01:49.077 --> 01:01:51.937

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, I mean, we're assuming you're respecting differences for all these answers.

  01:01:51.957 --> 01:01:53.597

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't want it, so horizontal.

  01:01:53.617 --> 01:01:55.617

  <v SPEAKER_2>Unless you want to clarify that you don't respect differences.

  01:01:58.757 --> 01:02:01.957

  <v SPEAKER_3>Sooner or later, we're going to find out what they actually mean.

  01:02:01.977 --> 01:02:02.957

  <v SPEAKER_2>So that was a horizontal.

  01:02:02.977 --> 01:02:04.437

  <v SPEAKER_4>That was a horizontal.

  01:02:04.457 --> 01:02:06.397

  <v SPEAKER_2>So you agree that pineapple should never be on pizza?

  01:02:07.817 --> 01:02:08.737

  <v SPEAKER_2>On your pizza, OK.

  01:02:08.837 --> 01:02:09.537

  <v SPEAKER_2>OK, ever.

  01:02:13.177 --> 01:02:15.957

  <v SPEAKER_4>Your only pineapple pizza recipe is for me and my team.

  01:02:15.977 --> 01:02:17.457

  <v SPEAKER_2>You were just in Vancouver.

  01:02:17.477 --> 01:02:26.117

  <v SPEAKER_2>So things that come from Canada, powdered cheese, Kraft Mac and cheese comes from Canada, pineapple on pizza comes from Canada.

  01:02:26.377 --> 01:02:27.837

  <v SPEAKER_4>I always thought it was Hawaiian.

  01:02:28.217 --> 01:02:30.617

  <v SPEAKER_2>They call it Hawaiian, but it comes from Canada.

  01:02:30.777 --> 01:02:32.117

  <v SPEAKER_3>Don't bring Hawaiian to this.

  01:02:32.597 --> 01:02:33.377

  <v SPEAKER_3>All right.

  01:02:33.597 --> 01:02:33.917

  <v SPEAKER_4>All right.

  01:02:33.937 --> 01:02:36.997

  <v SPEAKER_4>Horizontal is powdered cheese, pineapple on pizza is diagonal.

  01:02:39.857 --> 01:02:45.777

  <v SPEAKER_2>Ketchup is an acceptable hamburger condiment for folks of all ages, not just children under eight years old.

  01:02:46.477 --> 01:02:47.177

  <v SPEAKER_3>Horizontal.

  01:02:47.617 --> 01:02:48.357

  <v SPEAKER_2>Horizontal, you agree?

  01:02:48.477 --> 01:02:48.837

  <v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

  01:02:49.117 --> 01:02:50.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>That it's acceptable for all?

  01:02:50.597 --> 01:02:50.917

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yes.

  01:02:52.157 --> 01:02:52.797

  <v SPEAKER_4>He's judging me.

  01:02:54.937 --> 01:02:55.937

  <v SPEAKER_3>Judge me all you want.

  01:02:55.957 --> 01:02:56.517

  <v SPEAKER_2>I like it.

  01:02:58.197 --> 01:03:00.197

  <v SPEAKER_2>Pancakes are better than waffles.

  01:03:00.817 --> 01:03:01.957

  <v SPEAKER_2>Horizontal, if you agree.

  01:03:01.977 --> 01:03:03.037

  <v SPEAKER_2>Diagonal, if you disagree.

  01:03:04.957 --> 01:03:08.057

  <v SPEAKER_3>Horizontal, most are.

  01:03:08.377 --> 01:03:09.597

  <v SPEAKER_2>Why do you hate waffles?

  01:03:09.797 --> 01:03:11.517

  <v SPEAKER_3>No, they're harder to get right.

  01:03:12.217 --> 01:03:14.737

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're harder to get reliably right.

  01:03:17.317 --> 01:03:19.177

  <v SPEAKER_2>So at our house, we eat way more pancakes.

  01:03:19.237 --> 01:03:23.117

  <v SPEAKER_2>But waffles are like, once a month or so, we do a thing called waffle fort.

  01:03:23.137 --> 01:03:24.177

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know if I mentioned this to you.

  01:03:24.197 --> 01:03:27.457

  <v SPEAKER_2>We do what's called waffle fort, where you make waffles and build a fort to eat them in.

  01:03:28.817 --> 01:03:29.737

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's on Sunday.

  01:03:29.757 --> 01:03:30.297

  <v SPEAKER_2>Just try it.

  01:03:30.537 --> 01:03:32.797

  <v SPEAKER_4>I want to be a kid in Kenji's house.

  01:03:33.037 --> 01:03:34.677

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's not just for kids under 18.

  01:03:34.697 --> 01:03:35.957

  <v SPEAKER_3>Oh, you were doing this before you had kids.

  01:03:41.737 --> 01:03:42.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>Five more.

  01:03:45.557 --> 01:03:47.117

  <v SPEAKER_2>Pasta is not a breakfast food.

  01:03:48.597 --> 01:03:49.197

  <v SPEAKER_4>Diagonal.

  01:03:49.597 --> 01:03:51.197

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, pasta is a breakfast food.

  01:03:53.117 --> 01:03:54.477

  <v SPEAKER_2>Fresh peas over frozen.

  01:03:56.117 --> 01:03:56.757

  <v SPEAKER_4>Horizontal.

  01:03:57.337 --> 01:03:58.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>You would take fresh peas.

  01:03:58.497 --> 01:03:59.297

  <v SPEAKER_4>Over frozen.

  01:03:59.317 --> 01:03:59.717

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, really?

  01:03:59.737 --> 01:04:03.837

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, I would almost always take frozen peas over fresh.

  01:04:03.897 --> 01:04:06.877

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm wrong, but that's okay.

  01:04:06.897 --> 01:04:08.957

  <v SPEAKER_2>Maybe you have access to better peas than I generally do.

  01:04:08.977 --> 01:04:10.717

  <v SPEAKER_3>They're so good in the summer from the green market.

  01:04:10.737 --> 01:04:12.037

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're crunchy and complex.

  01:04:12.057 --> 01:04:15.677

  <v SPEAKER_2>They're good one out of ten times, I think.

  01:04:15.697 --> 01:04:19.417

  <v SPEAKER_2>When you get the good ones, they're great, but most of the time they're starchy and overgrown, I find.

  01:04:19.437 --> 01:04:22.137

  <v SPEAKER_2>Compared to the frozen ones, I don't know.

  01:04:22.157 --> 01:04:24.497

  <v SPEAKER_4>You know next summer we're going to be eating the peas and be like, he was right.

  01:04:24.837 --> 01:04:25.777

  <v SPEAKER_4>He was right.

  01:04:25.797 --> 01:04:27.437

  <v SPEAKER_4>Or right now I think you're wrong.

  01:04:28.077 --> 01:04:29.457

  <v SPEAKER_2>Deep dish pizza is a casserole?

  01:04:32.437 --> 01:04:33.097

  <v SPEAKER_4>Diagonal.

  01:04:33.917 --> 01:04:34.457

  <v SPEAKER_2>Disagree.

  01:04:34.477 --> 01:04:34.817

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

  01:04:34.957 --> 01:04:35.817

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, yes.

  01:04:36.777 --> 01:04:37.997

  <v SPEAKER_2>I agree with your disagreement.

  01:04:38.017 --> 01:04:39.017

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's not a casserole.

  01:04:39.037 --> 01:04:40.057

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's not what a casserole is.

  01:04:41.097 --> 01:04:42.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>I disagree with all of these things.

  01:04:42.297 --> 01:04:45.237

  <v SPEAKER_4>It has casserole-like textures, but no, it's not a casserole.

  01:04:45.537 --> 01:04:46.917

  <v SPEAKER_2>Drumettes over flats.

  01:04:48.257 --> 01:04:49.437

  <v SPEAKER_4>100%, yes.

  01:04:49.737 --> 01:04:51.497

  <v SPEAKER_4>That's a huge horizontal for me.

  01:04:51.737 --> 01:04:53.257

  <v SPEAKER_2>You would take drumettes over flats.

  01:04:53.277 --> 01:04:54.597

  <v SPEAKER_4>I vastly prefer drumettes.

  01:04:55.177 --> 01:04:57.437

  <v SPEAKER_4>More importantly, I'm married to somebody who chooses flats.

  01:04:57.597 --> 01:04:58.117

  <v SPEAKER_4>I'm sorry.

  01:04:58.137 --> 01:04:59.877

  <v SPEAKER_2>I'm asking you to clarify all of these.

  01:04:59.897 --> 01:05:01.177

  <v SPEAKER_2>You get more than three.

  01:05:01.197 --> 01:05:02.797

  <v SPEAKER_4>Little drumsticks, they're perfect.

  01:05:02.857 --> 01:05:03.497

  <v SPEAKER_4>I love them.

  01:05:03.517 --> 01:05:07.897

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't have to do any mouth gymnastics to get all the meat out.

  01:05:08.617 --> 01:05:11.577

  <v SPEAKER_2>But the wings are juicier, like the flats are juicier.

  01:05:12.177 --> 01:05:13.717

  <v SPEAKER_2>The flats have like bits of...

  01:05:13.737 --> 01:05:17.177

  <v SPEAKER_4>They're a little more oily, but there's more inside that isn't flavored enough.

  01:05:17.817 --> 01:05:18.557

  <v SPEAKER_2>More inside?

  01:05:18.577 --> 01:05:21.757

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, because you mean the flavor with the buffaloes?

  01:05:21.777 --> 01:05:22.177

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.

  01:05:22.637 --> 01:05:23.437

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, okay.

  01:05:23.457 --> 01:05:24.557

  <v SPEAKER_2>But the inside is like...

  01:05:25.037 --> 01:05:27.697

  <v SPEAKER_4>It's harder to get certain lazy, it's more work.

  01:05:27.697 --> 01:05:28.697

  <v SPEAKER_4>I want the drumettes.

  01:05:28.697 --> 01:05:30.337

  <v SPEAKER_2>Okay, that's fine.

  01:05:30.357 --> 01:05:30.817

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's fine.

  01:05:30.857 --> 01:05:31.777

  <v SPEAKER_2>We could share a plate of wings.

  01:05:34.497 --> 01:05:42.117

  <v SPEAKER_2>And, okay, bacon is best when it's a little bit soft and chewy in spots.

  01:05:42.437 --> 01:05:43.877

  <v SPEAKER_4>Diagonal.

  01:05:44.417 --> 01:05:44.957

  <v SPEAKER_2>Diagonal.

  01:05:44.977 --> 01:05:45.537

  <v SPEAKER_2>You disagree, okay.

  01:05:45.557 --> 01:05:50.217

  <v SPEAKER_4>I think if the majority is crisp, if there's some tender parts, that's okay.

  01:05:50.297 --> 01:05:54.137

  <v SPEAKER_2>So tender or like still like some parts that are pale pink and like...

  01:05:54.377 --> 01:05:54.677

  <v SPEAKER_4>No.

  01:05:55.037 --> 01:05:56.797

  <v SPEAKER_4>Stop it.

  01:05:56.797 --> 01:05:57.257

  <v SPEAKER_2>Stop it.

  01:05:57.277 --> 01:05:58.477

  <v SPEAKER_2>Some people like it that way, right?

  01:05:58.477 --> 01:05:59.437

  <v SPEAKER_4>And they're allowed to.

  01:05:59.457 --> 01:06:00.877

  <v SPEAKER_2>Some people like their bacon cheese.

  01:06:02.517 --> 01:06:03.717

  <v SPEAKER_2>That's why I moved to Seattle.

  01:06:04.577 --> 01:06:06.997

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's a crispy bacon town.

  01:06:07.797 --> 01:06:08.557

  <v SPEAKER_4>I like it really...

  01:06:08.717 --> 01:06:09.437

  <v SPEAKER_4>And that's actually...

  01:06:09.457 --> 01:06:14.197

  <v SPEAKER_4>I actually don't like bacon in things because it'll immediately lose its crisp.

  01:06:14.717 --> 01:06:15.777

  <v SPEAKER_4>I want bacon crisp.

  01:06:15.837 --> 01:06:20.577

  <v SPEAKER_4>And so I'd rather keep bacon like outside the omelet, outside the quiche, outside...

  01:06:21.877 --> 01:06:23.497

  <v SPEAKER_2>But are there dishes...

  01:06:23.517 --> 01:06:25.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>So like if you make a...

  01:06:25.317 --> 01:06:26.557

  <v SPEAKER_2>Like a Coq au vin, right?

  01:06:26.577 --> 01:06:27.977

  <v SPEAKER_2>And you have like bacon lardon.

  01:06:27.997 --> 01:06:29.337

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I'll make it that way.

  01:06:29.877 --> 01:06:31.557

  <v SPEAKER_4>But I always feel like it would still be better to like...

  01:06:31.697 --> 01:06:34.917

  <v SPEAKER_4>Sometimes I'll pull it out and sprinkle them back in in the end instead.

  01:06:35.057 --> 01:06:44.057

  <v SPEAKER_2>So when I'm crisping up the lardon for a dish where the bacon's gonna go back into the dish at the end and braise, I do often feel like we're wasting the crispness a little bit.

  01:06:44.077 --> 01:06:45.037

  <v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I feel like we're just like...

  01:06:45.057 --> 01:06:48.137

  <v SPEAKER_2>And so you have to eat at least half of it before it goes in.

  01:06:49.957 --> 01:06:51.577

  <v SPEAKER_4>It just walks in my kitchen.

  01:06:51.597 --> 01:06:52.957

  <v SPEAKER_3>Like, this is not...

  01:06:52.977 --> 01:06:56.677

  <v SPEAKER_2>Sometimes you need the first batch of bacon just so you have enough bacon fat to render the second batch.

  01:06:56.697 --> 01:06:58.737

  <v SPEAKER_3>You always have to round up on bacon.

  01:06:58.817 --> 01:07:00.357

  <v SPEAKER_4>You always have to round up on bacon.

  01:07:01.477 --> 01:07:01.857

  <v SPEAKER_2>All right.

  01:07:01.877 --> 01:07:04.837

  <v SPEAKER_2>I think it's nine o'clock, which is when I think we're supposed to...

  01:07:04.957 --> 01:07:08.857

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, we're supposed to let everyone out of here or are forced to let everyone out of here.

  01:07:12.457 --> 01:07:13.217

  <v SPEAKER_2>Were there announcements?

  01:07:13.357 --> 01:07:14.037

  <v SPEAKER_2>Are there announcements?

  01:07:14.037 --> 01:07:15.037

  <v SPEAKER_2>Oh, wait, there's a...

  01:07:15.377 --> 01:07:16.117

  <v SPEAKER_2>No, no.

  01:07:16.137 --> 01:07:17.017

  <v SPEAKER_2>That was already announced, right?

  01:07:17.037 --> 01:07:19.277

  <v SPEAKER_2>There's a place where you can get a cocktail named after you or something?

  01:07:19.297 --> 01:07:20.577

  <v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I didn't know there was a cocktail.

  01:07:20.697 --> 01:07:21.837

  <v SPEAKER_4>Can you guys let me know if it's any good?

  01:07:21.857 --> 01:07:23.797

  <v SPEAKER_2>Deb's going to be there making the cocktails herself.

  01:07:24.577 --> 01:07:25.757

  <v SPEAKER_4>What cocktail should I make?

  01:07:26.417 --> 01:07:27.237

  <v SPEAKER_2>The Kenji.

  01:07:27.737 --> 01:07:28.717

  <v SPEAKER_4>Oh, my God.

  01:07:28.737 --> 01:07:30.037

  <v SPEAKER_4>But there isn't a Kenji cocktail?

  01:07:30.477 --> 01:07:30.857

  <v SPEAKER_4>I don't know.

  01:07:30.877 --> 01:07:32.297

  <v SPEAKER_2>I stopped drinking like a few months ago.

  01:07:33.377 --> 01:07:34.357

  <v SPEAKER_4>What, is it a mocktail?

  01:07:34.737 --> 01:07:35.577

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, yeah.

  01:07:36.457 --> 01:07:36.777

  <v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

  01:07:37.157 --> 01:07:37.917

  <v SPEAKER_4>I hope it's good.

  01:07:37.957 --> 01:07:38.697

  <v SPEAKER_4>I hope you enjoy it.

  01:07:38.717 --> 01:07:38.997

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

  01:07:39.017 --> 01:07:39.617

  <v SPEAKER_2>I don't know what it is.

  01:07:40.617 --> 01:07:41.137

  <v SPEAKER_4>Maybe it's good.

  01:07:41.157 --> 01:07:41.837

  <v SPEAKER_4>I hope it's good.

  01:07:42.637 --> 01:07:44.917

  <v SPEAKER_2>Um, yeah, all right.

  01:07:44.937 --> 01:07:45.797

  <v SPEAKER_2>We're going to end this with a huh.

  01:07:45.817 --> 01:07:46.057

  <v SPEAKER_2>Thank you.

  01:07:58.134 --> 01:08:01.854

  <v SPEAKER_2>It's a very nice Thank you all for being here.

  01:08:02.114 --> 01:08:04.414

  <v SPEAKER_2>Thank you, Deb, for coming out here.